LondonLax Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 1 minute ago, pas5898 said: The Leopard 2 is from the 1980's, Challenger 2 early 90s etc. They wouldn't be handed over if there was any chance of this having an affect on any Nato vs Russia, China, Iran was in the future. If they successfully replicated this tech, then they are still 30/40 years behind. The base platforms are from then but the technology they contain is updated regularly. Presumably the stuff that is sent would be more like 10-20 years behind rather than 30-40? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 27, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 27, 2023 3 minutes ago, pas5898 said: The Leopard 2 is from the 1980's, Challenger 2 early 90s etc. They wouldn't be handed over if there was any chance of this having an affect on any Nato vs Russia, China, Iran wars in the future. If they successfully replicated this tech, then they are still 30/40 years behind. The internals get updated all the time. It's not 30/40 years behind in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 Even cloned western tanks would have the same issue as the current Russian Tanks. They need fuel and ammunition which is delivered on a truck and stored in a building. That’s how NATO would stop Russian tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 15 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: Even cloned western tanks would have the same issue as the current Russian Tanks. They need fuel and ammunition which is delivered on a truck and stored in a building. That’s how NATO would stop Russian tanks. I think this is a good point you touch upon. The tech will give Ukrainians certain advantages over the Russians, if they have enough of it. However, the determining factor will be logistical supplies, how quickly can Ukraine resup. If they are drip fed supplies then the tech advantages will diminish very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 27, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 27, 2023 7 hours ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: I suspect they have been training in them already for ages, Quote Ukrainian officers have been given tactical tank training in UK ‘for months’, says ex-British Army commander Former Royal Tank Regiment leader Lieutenant-General David Leakey warns West’s tanks ‘not enough’ and calls for Ukraine to get ‘full orchestra’ of military capabilities Ukrainian military officers have been receiving tactical tank training in the UK and Germany for months, a former British Army tank commander has said. Lieutenant-General David Leakey, who served in the Royal Tank Regiment, said he believes the amount of tanks being sent by the West is not enough and that they must be used “in clout, not dribble” to punch through Russian lines. He called for Ukraine to receive the “full orchestra” of military capability from other countries. The i 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 27, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 27, 2023 13 minutes ago, bickster said: The i It’s more than Tank commanders needing training, obviously. Mechanics, gunners, loaders, etc also need to learn how to fix, maintain and operate the tanks. Of course it helps that a rotation of commanders have been trained up in tactics and so on, already. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 2 hours ago, bickster said: The i Here’s hoping that Poland has done the same for leopard 2. Even if it’s a nice gesture and they could offer some local advantage, the 14 challenger 2s aren’t going to change the war drastically themselves. The quantity that may change the war will be the leo2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 An interesting development. Turkey has got 2 ships that act as mobile power plants to support their electrical grid. They have asked Romania and Moldova to host them and hook them up to their power grid. This will indirectly supply Ukraine with electricity from NATO protected waters. The long term aim is to site them in Ukrainian ports and hook them up directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted January 28, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 28, 2023 16 hours ago, blandy said: It’s more than Tank commanders needing training, obviously. Mechanics, gunners, loaders, etc also need to learn how to fix, maintain and operate the tanks. Of course it helps that a rotation of commanders have been trained up in tactics and so on, already. Hopefully they can be repaired and maintained outside of the Ukraine and shipped back in. Couldn't foreign mechanics /technical and training staff be on the ground inside of the Ukraine supporting the equipment, would that be a step to far, it's certainly a grey area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 28, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 28, 2023 10 minutes ago, tinker said: Hopefully they can be repaired and maintained outside of the Ukraine and shipped back in. Couldn't foreign mechanics /technical and training staff be on the ground inside of the Ukraine supporting the equipment, would that be a step to far, it's certainly a grey area? Seems unlikely. If your tank breaks down in a field in eastern Ukraine in a battle, how do you get it to Poland? There might be a few volunteers who know how to fix a leopard tank there already, but I’d guess mainly it’ll be done by UA personnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted January 28, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 28, 2023 13 minutes ago, blandy said: Seems unlikely. If your tank breaks down in a field in eastern Ukraine in a battle, how do you get it to Poland? There might be a few volunteers who know how to fix a leopard tank there already, but I’d guess mainly it’ll be done by UA personnel. Breaking down completely would be an issue but a diesel engine is more or less the same no matter what vehicle it is, drivetrain would be an issue though. I'm guessing the systems that are unreliable are the more specialised ones, guidance , loading etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 24 minutes ago, blandy said: Seems unlikely. If your tank breaks down in a field in eastern Ukraine in a battle, how do you get it to Poland? I know some people with recent experience. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 28, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 28, 2023 15 minutes ago, tinker said: Breaking down completely would be an issue but a diesel engine is more or less the same no matter what vehicle it is, drivetrain would be an issue though. I'm guessing the systems that are unreliable are the more specialised ones, guidance , loading etc etc. If something stops working, by far the quickest way to fix it, is to do so in situ, not move a tank hundreds of miles to another country to fix it and then send it back again. For major overhauls it makes sense, but not really for anything else. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted January 28, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 28, 2023 There must be thousands of car and HGV mechanics who can be retrained reasonably quickly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 28, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 28, 2023 I guess they’ll have to set up some repair centres a bit back from the front lines, where they can keep spares and maintenance manuals/laptops and have more in depth repairs carried out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 1 hour ago, blandy said: I guess they’ll have to set up some repair centres a bit back from the front lines, where they can keep spares and maintenance manuals/laptops and have more in depth repairs carried out That should not be too hard to do as the Russians are more interested in targeting flats/houses than army stuff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 One of the advantages of the Leopard is the engines can be removed and replaced in 15 min. I think most repairs will be carried out in the field or close to it by mobile mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 28, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 28, 2023 1 minute ago, PussEKatt said: the Russians are more interested in targeting flats/houses than army stuff It seems like the Russians are pulverising towns and villages to rubble and then when there’s nothing left of them, the Ukraine forces are retreating back a bit in the East, in places. It’s a bizarre situation, Russia sacrificing huge numbers of troops to take what where once populated areas, but which they’ve turned to dust, all in the name of propaganda and something to claim as success for Putin. If their policy of doing that continues, then will some tanks make a huge difference overall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 There’s a lot of big fires being reported in Russia recently. I would like to think that it’s sabotage. Or is it the economy is crashing and the business owners are cashing in on insurance? Both are good news. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 8 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said: Turkey has got 2 ships that act as mobile power plants to support their electrical grid. How does a ship generate electricity? Shovel coal into a fire or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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