bickster Posted January 19, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 19, 2023 27 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: One less AA system to take to Ukraine and given Russian contruction in general a risk to the residents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 20 minutes ago, bickster said: One less AA system to take to Ukraine and given Russian contruction in general a risk to the residents It's not the only one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 This conflict must be scaring the ‘old guard’ power epicentres in Europe. France and Germany are showing how inept they are at foreign policy while everyone around them keep showing them what unity is. Countries like Norway, Poland, the Baltic states and Netherlands are quite heavily supplying more aid, kit and money per gdp than both. It’s frankly embarrassing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 13 hours ago, magnkarl said: You'd think so, but it's quite obvious that Russia has the same tools in its locker. Bucha, Irpin and the amount of people who have gone missing from Crimea and Donbas suggests that the similarities are sadly very real. The man said he hoped the similarities continue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 1 hour ago, magnkarl said: This conflict must be scaring the ‘old guard’ power epicentres in Europe. France and Germany are showing how inept they are at foreign policy while everyone around them keep showing them what unity is. Countries like Norway, Poland, the Baltic states and Netherlands are quite heavily supplying more aid, kit and money per gdp than both. It’s frankly embarrassing. I agree. Both France and Germany are starting to smell of shitin all this. It's sort of expected by the French who've been pretty useless since Napoleon in times of trouble. Germany's situation is a little more embarrassing especially as they've pulled away from Russian energy. Sholz doesn't seem to be able to pull away from Putins crotch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 (edited) Back from his little ego trip proclaiming a Holy war. Now proclaiming Ukraine were hours from invading Russia. He's such a p***k. I mean lets ignore the previous 8 years of conflict prior to February 22 when the frontlines hadn't moved in the Donbas. Edited January 19, 2023 by avfc1982am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 19, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 19, 2023 3 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: Sholz doesn't seem to be able to pull away from Putins crotch. It's don't actually think it's Sholtz, it's his coalition partners, the left in the coalition are the pro-Russian ones putting the blocks on everything but he needs them to stay in power, he's having to walk a tightrope to keep the coalition together 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 Just now, bickster said: It's don't actually think it's Sholtz, it's his coalition partners, the left in the coalition are the pro-Russian ones putting the blocks on everything but he needs them to stay in power, he's having to walk a tightrope to keep the coalition together Then at this moment in time Germany are about as much use to Ukraine as as a chocolate fireguard. The other question then is has the tide turned towards Russia? It's quite clear that the collective West could end this war assisting Ukraine if they really wanted to but it's seems many are not that bothered behind the scenes and are continually delaying in providing assistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 8 hours ago, avfc1982am said: Then at this moment in time Germany are about as much use to Ukraine as as a chocolate fireguard. The other question then is has the tide turned towards Russia? It's quite clear that the collective West could end this war assisting Ukraine if they really wanted to but it's seems many are not that bothered behind the scenes and are continually delaying in providing assistance. Maybe they want it to drag out, further weakening Russia? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 I think the West are comfortable with the daily losses to Russia’s military hardware that it will find extremely difficult/ impossible to replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted January 20, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 20, 2023 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Genie said: I think the West are comfortable with the daily losses to Russia’s military hardware that it will find extremely difficult/ impossible to replace. Why though? They already now know they can wipe it out easily. Doesn't seem to be much point in prolonging it for no reason as it's still causing enormous global harm. Wars don't benefit anyone. Edited January 20, 2023 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 20, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, sidcow said: Why though? They already now know they can wipe it out easily. Doesn't seem to be much point in prolonging it for no reason as it's still causing enormous global harm. Wars don't benefit anyone. Escalted to World War level, the war will benefit less and last longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted January 20, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, bickster said: Escalted to World War level, the war will benefit less and last longer I wasn't suggesting we actively get involved, I was questioning the logic of deliberately prolonging the war to erode Russian equipment that we already know is massively inferior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 8 minutes ago, bickster said: Escalted to World War level, the war will benefit less and last longer It won't get that far. Nobody picks a fight they know they are going to lose. Send NATO troops, vehicles and planes into Ukraine. Within two months all Russian forces have left Ukraine or are dead. Russia cannot retaliate for a variety of reasons. The only downside is the shitshow that's left after that when NATO withdraws and Ukraine is constantly undermined by Russian interference in politics/corruption etc. while they are trying to rebuild a broken country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 33 minutes ago, sidcow said: Why though? They already now know they can wipe it out easily. Doesn't seem to be much point in prolonging it for no reason as it's still causing enormous global harm. Wars don't benefit anyone. If the USA / Western countries gave Russia both barrels back in Feb / March then Russia would be straight back at home plotting how to use its military arsenal for a second go. As it’s playing out when Russia finally concedes defeat it’ll be absolutely screwed and take decades to rebuild its military infrastructure to be any kind of threat again. They’ll have no significant stock of planes, helicopters, tanks, trucks, missiles, guns, troops or money. That’s I think why it’s being allowed to continue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pas5898 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 (edited) 37 minutes ago, villa89 said: It won't get that far. Nobody picks a fight they know they are going to lose. Send NATO troops, vehicles and planes into Ukraine. Within two months all Russian forces have left Ukraine or are dead. Russia cannot retaliate for a variety of reasons. The only downside is the shitshow that's left after that when NATO withdraws and Ukraine is constantly undermined by Russian interference in politics/corruption etc. while they are trying to rebuild a broken country. As one with Russian, Lithuanian and Ukranian relatives, the problem with "full scale" Nato assistance means Putin will be proved right with his anti west retoric, therefore making a 1,000,0000 - 3,000,0000 mobilisation very plausible. (On a separate note, expect some sort of false flag attack on Moscow, St Petersburg etc) In the main Russians are extremely patriotic and have been fed anti-west nonsense all their lives via heavily controlled state sponsored TV. Videos of American Abrams tanks rolling into Crimea and/or Russia itself would cause a further loss of life on an almost unimaginable scale (on both sides). Edited January 20, 2023 by pas5898 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 20, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 20, 2023 37 minutes ago, villa89 said: It won't get that far. Nobody picks a fight they know they are going to lose. Send NATO troops, vehicles and planes into Ukraine. Within two months all Russian forces have left Ukraine or are dead. Russia cannot retaliate for a variety of reasons. The only downside is the shitshow that's left after that when NATO withdraws and Ukraine is constantly undermined by Russian interference in politics/corruption etc. while they are trying to rebuild a broken country. No, of course it won't get that far but if other countries put boots on the ground the likelihood of it happening increase dramatically which is why they won't and which is why it won't happen. Or one of the reasons, there are plenty of others too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 7 minutes ago, Genie said: If the USA / Western countries gave Russia both barrels back in Feb / March then Russia would be straight back at home plotting how to use its military arsenal for a second go. As it’s playing out when Russia finally concedes defeat it’ll be absolutely screwed and take decades to rebuild its military infrastructure to be any kind of threat again. They’ll have no significant stock of planes, helicopters, tanks, trucks, missiles, guns, troops or money. That’s I think why it’s being allowed to continue. I used to think this. Now I've become a little more cynical. I don't personally think the collective West are dragging this out to just deplete Russia anymore. Every day more arms are needed to support Ukraine, more money, more orders from manufacturers, more destruction and potential rebuild contracts for those Western friends of Ukraine. The future of Ukraine is very much in the hands of the West. The longer this goes on the less this benefits Ukraine in any shape or form, because they just become a bigger basket case and more indebted to those supposedly helping them.. My major concern is that if this is the strategy of Western partners, Ukraine will possibly at some point get to a situation whereby attrition has more of a bearing on them than the Russian meat grinding machine. If Ukrainian frontlines collapse because of lack of kit now then the chances of Ukraine recovering with enough man power to take back nothing but wasteland seems remote. Russia will just overload these regions, decimate, rob, murder and leave nothing left to fight for. At least not for the civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 2 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: I used to think this. Now I've become a little more cynical. I don't personally think the collective West are dragging this out to just deplete Russia anymore. Every day more arms are needed to support Ukraine, more money, more orders from manufacturers, more destruction and potential rebuild contracts for those Western friends of Ukraine. The future of Ukraine is very much in the hands of the West. The longer this goes on the less this benefits Ukraine in any shape or form, because they just become a bigger basket case and more indebted to those supposedly helping them.. My major concern is that if this is the strategy of Western partners, Ukraine will possibly at some point get to a situation whereby attrition has more of a bearing on them than the Russian meat grinding machine. If Ukrainian frontlines collapse because of lack of kit now then the chances of Ukraine recovering with enough man power to take back nothing but wasteland seems remote. Russia will just overload these regions, decimate, rob, murder and leave nothing left to fight for. At least not for the civilians. Ukraine don’t have much of a choice. They are being supplied to what appears to be maintaining the stalemate in terms of battlegrounds. If the West pull out then Ukraine goes under quickly. Unfortunately for Ukraine it looks like they are being used as a pawn in the war with Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 12 hours ago, magnkarl said: This conflict must be scaring the ‘old guard’ power epicentres in Europe. France and Germany are showing how inept they are at foreign policy while everyone around them keep showing them what unity is. Countries like Norway, Poland, the Baltic states and Netherlands are quite heavily supplying more aid, kit and money per gdp than both. It’s frankly embarrassing. One of the very few things Trump said that I agreed with was that France and Germany need to increase their defence spending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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