TRO Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: The one he replaced twice left him in the stands was forced to bring him back due to injuries At the time his form was unpredictable and you know it......and no his rise like a phoenix was his own doing not Steve Bruce. Thats what players do....work on their game and gain confidence. Edited December 12, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Just now, TRO said: At the time his form was unpredictable and you know it. At the time the selections and tactics were unpredictable and you know it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Just now, Grasshopper said: At the time the selections and tactics were unpredictable and you know it Tomato, Tomarto................. They still are to many on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 works both ways doesnt it? The difference being Given a chance on the pitch - not set up to fail - Adomah scores Bruce has a chance EVERY game to stamp his mark on it His mark is a smelly brown one, just like the Sunderland fan „curled out“ in the stands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Grasshopper said: works both ways doesnt it? The difference being Given a chance on the pitch - not set up to fail - Adomah scores Bruce has a chance EVERY game to stamp his mark on it His mark is a smelly brown one, just like the Sunderland fan „curled out“ in the stands I guess if he wasn't here and everything was the same.....you would struggle really wouldn't you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, TRO said: I guess if he wasn't here and everything was the same.....you would struggle really wouldn't you. I really have no doubt that any manager who was given our squad (even Bruces signings) would get us playing differently (better - results progressing as a result) Bruces way will get some results but not enough I‘m afraid. He‘s proved it in the past, is proving it at the very moment and will prove it till the day he‘s done here. It‘s a continuum of inconsistant results as a product of an inconsistant method of play (Method? What Method?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Grasshopper said: I really have no doubt that any manager who was given our squad (even Bruces signings) would get us playing differently (better - results progressing as a result) Bruces way will get some results but not enough I‘m afraid. He‘s proved it in the past, is proving it at the very moment and will prove it till the day he‘s done here. It‘s a continuum of inconsistant results as a product of an inconsistant method of play (Method? What Method?) I agree about the play......But I clearly have a difference of opinion as to the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 29 minutes ago, TRO said: I agree about the play......But I clearly have a difference of opinion as to the cause. When you agree with the play, you also agree with the cause. Because The cause is the play The play is instigated by Bruce Bruce is thus the cause The circle is complete Then you most certainly must be of the opinion -> Bruce Out 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, TRO said: But why are they easier to come by?.....Tell Sunderland that or Hull If you only have players for that league, surely its the same. IF hypothetically you put a premier league team in that division.......then i would agree. Wins are wins and if you are in that division, presumably you deserve to be. They're easier to come by because we're supposed to be the big fish in a small pond in the Championship. Sunderland and Hull haven't had the same kind of investment and are less attractive to players than what we are. If you're comparing managers across leagues and across seasons expectation has to be taken into account if the aim is to try and do it objectively. Edited December 12, 2017 by Michael118 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 49 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: When you agree with the play, you also agree with the cause. Because The cause is the play The play is instigated by Bruce Bruce is thus the cause The circle is complete Then you most certainly must be of the opinion -> Bruce Out Nope..I do not follow that line of logic.....He has a bearing on it, but does not execute it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 37 minutes ago, Michael118 said: They're easier to come by because we're supposed to be the big fish in a small pond in the Championship. Sunderland and Hull haven't had the same kind of investment and are less attractive to players than what we are. If you're comparing managers across leagues and across seasons expectation has to be taken into account if the aim is to try and do it objectively. Don't confuse the club with the team. The club has been built on past successes.....thats where the expectation derives from The team is reality, this is where we are .....and we have players in this division for a reason. We are expected to do this that and the other, because some folk think so.......The players play like they do, because thats what they are. In 74/75 in Division 2 ...we took the division by storm finishing 2nd to Man Utd, but we had offensive players like Little, Leonard, Hamiltion & Graydon........all had goals in them and plenty....They could be trusted to carry the fight. This 5 of ours now have not got goals in them like that.....with the exception Of Kodjia ......who have been unavailable for most of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 22 minutes ago, TRO said: Nope..I do not follow that line of logic.....He has a bearing on it, but does not execute it. So you blame the players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Grasshopper said: So you blame the players? I think its too simplistic to blame any single dimensional character/s Its a group thing.....Inc the heirarchy Look GH.....I would be a fool to idly defend Steve Bruce at every juncture., he said himself he made a mistake not playing hourihane in the last game he is honest and he has humility, which is sometimes lacking in some...Where i dig my heels in, is with the failure in some (in my eyes) to see other things. I have my opinions just like you.....and I am confident I am right until a stronger argument is put forward in a logical sense that makes me think again.....I then say hmmm, that makes sense. To date I have not read one, to say Bruce should go. I do not feel confident in just watching the games I watch and then saying its ALL the managers fault....some of it yes......but I see things that he is responsible for but THEY are to blame IMO Managers do get let down.....Delph nearly let Pepe down on Sunday fortunately and he was honest, he had players to bail him out.......We don't......would we of said Pepe should not have coached that in to him, never.....when they cross that white line they are on their own, good,bad or indifferent. back to here and now......I am not going in to who's to blame.....But I believe we have a major front line problem.....now whether its the managers fault or the tea lady, its not going to go away until Jan and its going to affect the performances of all the players and the manager. Things like this cannot be swept under the carpet.....the fact that we should not be in this situation is another debate. IMO......He has to find a way of keeping us in touch until re-enforcements arrive. ps I think this problem is having a knock on effect to the whole team. Edited December 12, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 4 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said: Their pedigree as manager. Take MO'N for example. Certain players would have been written off hypotheticallly, but he knew how to get the best out of what would normally be mediocore players and make them look like world beaters at times. are you having a laugh....spot the world beater Harewood Shorey Cuellar Beye Maloney Agathe Salifou Zat Knight Reo coker Routledege are you bored yet? Davies Sidwell Heskey Warnock Collins Dunne Marshall I'm bored now 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 11 hours ago, TRO said: I think that is a desperate attempt GH if I may say so. All those players that you mention are playing for us in a division lower than their current club for a reason.....They are not Premier league players they are presiding in the Championship, because their clubs have released them for a reason. John Terry is a 37 year old player who is playing well for us but his premier league days are behind him. Snod was not deemed good enough for your West Ham example Elmo's previous team are in the lower half of our league Onomah is learning his trade and deemed not ready for first team duties in the Prem....If he ever gets there. Johnstone is 3rd choice at United hardly classed as a Premiership experienced Keeper with them. Adomah's previous team are below us in our league Jed was let go, presumably because his legs have gone for the prem and we have rarely seen him JC was failing to get in to the premiership team you allude to, hence his move to us. AH is hardly an example he has been 6 years with us. Richards was at the best team in the country, who failed to get anything out of him in recent times Gabby is the best non playing/non scoring club captain we have ever had. I think that is a cheap attempt to rubbish a manager who has attempted to raise the equivalent of" The Mary Rose" when we was leaking goals for fun and resembling a circus.....He has instilled resillience and doggedness where non exisited and restored respectabilty to our name and to use that example to further your cause to vilify him, is sad mate. You make out they have all arrived from a top 6 premier clubs first team and he has ruined them all. shame on you. Oh good grief. So 15 to 20 decent players (read very good for this level) players are suddenly rubbish, and it is nothing to do with Bruce. Wow! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 8 hours ago, TheStagMan said: Oh good grief. So 15 to 20 decent players (read very good for this level) players are suddenly rubbish, and it is nothing to do with Bruce. easy tiger.....who said the players are rubbish.....where did i say that,pray....you clearly do have your own agenda and trying to write my script. I was merely answering a claim that they are all premiership players or ex premiership players, alluding to the notion they are not running away with things because of Bruce. I disagree as you know and i was merely saying a number are with us for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) I don't think anyone would argue that players can't make mistakes that cost us, that we are not suffering with injuries at the moment. The problem is under Bruce we have played the same way and seen the same limitations whatever the lineup. We struggle far too often with basic passing and movement, and when that happens over an extended period with different players, then to me that is a lack of coaching. I watched Sheffield Utd vs Bristol City last Friday and they are both better than us at keeping the ball and creating opportunities as a team, not just relying on moments of magic from individuals. I challenge anybody to say they would swap squads with either of those teams, yet their managers are able to get them playing nice stuff. At the end of the day Bruce has had resources far beyond most managers in the league - he inherited the likes of Kodjia, Chester, Grealish, Adomah etc, had significant sums to spend in January, and in the summer was able to bring in Terry, Whelan and Snodgrass who will be on huge wages for this league (Terry surely must be the highest paid ever). And yet 21 games into the season we are in 5th place, level on points with a team who came up from League 1, 3 points behind Bristol City, 7 behind Cardiff (where Warnock took over at exactly the same time as Bruce did here), and already 11 points behind Wolves. Its not good enough, if we don't get promoted this season we are in trouble. Edited December 12, 2017 by andym 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 Is this exact same debate going to happen everytime we have a bad performancs without a win? This thread is like Groundhog Day, 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 51 minutes ago, TRO said: are you having a laugh....spot the world beater Harewood Shorey Cuellar Beye Maloney Agathe Salifou Zat Knight Reo coker Routledege are you bored yet? Davies Sidwell Heskey Warnock Collins Dunne Marshall I'm bored now Spotted. Our Senegalese Zidane! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvfcRigo82 Posted December 12, 2017 Share Posted December 12, 2017 1 hour ago, andym said: I don't think anyone would argue that players can't make mistakes that cost us, that we are not suffering with injuries at the moment. The problem is under Bruce we have played the same way and seen the same limitations whatever the lineup. We struggle far too often with basic passing and movement, and when that happens over an extended period with different players, then to me that is a lack of coaching. I watched Sheffield Utd vs Bristol City last Friday and they are both better than us at keeping the ball and creating opportunities as a team, not just relying on moments of magic from individuals. I challenge anybody to say they would swap squads with either of those teams, yet their managers are able to get them playing nice stuff. At the end of the day Bruce has had resources far beyond most managers in the league - he inherited the likes of Kodjia, Chester, Grealish, Adomah etc, had significant sums to spend in January, and in the summer was able to bring in Terry, Whelan and Snodgrass who will be on huge wages for this league (Terry surely must be the highest paid ever). And yet 21 games into the season we are in 5th place, level on points with a team who came up from League 1, 3 points behind Bristol City, 7 behind Cardiff (where Warnock took over at exactly the same time as Bruce did here), and already 11 points behind Wolves. Its not good enough, if we don't get promoted this season we are in trouble. Brilliant post. Could not agree more. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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