Villa Park redevelopment

[sidcow]

It's insane

Name another club stadium that has 2 mainline railway stations in very easy walking distance of the ground on 2 converging railway lines.

Is on the doorstep of a major motorway at the very heart of the motorway network.

Is in walking distance (yes it is, I used to regularly walk it) of the city centre.

Villa Park is actually the best connected stadium outside of London.

It would be much much cheaper to rebuild the stations than to move ground to somewhere else which would actually be less well connected.  The idea is insane.  Unless we can get right into the city centre which is totally out of the question and would cost ten times the price of any other solution.

And the next metro line to be built should be down the Lichfield Road which is actually perfect for it anyway.

Edited July 5, 2023 by sidcow

[OutByEaster?]

1 hour ago, Wainy316 said:

Don't we get some kind of update on what the amended plans are today?

I don't think we will - there's a consultation at the ground which is largely a tick-box exercise as part of the planning process - I think we'll get a good look at that in a few days time when those revised plans are submitted to the council planning permission portal.

I'm not sure the club will make any sort of big announcement around any of that unless they choose to share with us the plans for the revamped academy building on Witton Lane.

 

 

[The Fun Factory]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

I don't think we will - there's a consultation at the ground which is largely a tick-box exercise as part of the planning process - I think we'll get a good look at that in a few days time when those revised plans are submitted to the council planning permission portal.

I'm not sure the club will make any sort of big announcement around any of that unless they choose to share with us the plans for the revamped academy building on Witton Lane.

 

 

 I doubt they will do an all singing all dancing announcement given all of the  previous mocks-ups and visual displays. This will look worse as there will be no Villa Live with just some new cladding over the academy building.

[wishywashy]

Call me crazy, but I'm not overly keen on the idea of forcibly evicting thousands, likely with huge attachments to the club, so that there aren't any poors (god forbid) within the vicinity of the new Aston Villa Megastore. How on earth does this have 150+ likes?

Edited July 5, 2023 by wishywashy

[MrBlack]

1 minute ago, wishywashy said:

Call me crazy, but I'm not overly keen on the idea of forcibly evicting thousands  so that there aren't any poors, god forbid, within the vicinity of the new Aston Villa Megastore. How on earth does this have 150+ likes?

Absolutely. 

The area needs significant gentrification, but not the kind that forcibly, and completely,  displaces those currently living there. Some balance needs to be reached, but who's going to pay for it. 

The issue being that the stadium does need more room if it wants to exceed 50k capacity. 

Building a taller block of spacious apartments, with a communal outdoor area, in order to move a couple of roads worth of tenants,  might be palatable to some of them. Getting a new home that doesn't cost a fortune to heat, in the same area... will appeal to some.

But ultimately there will always be some for whom it is a family home that they will never voluntarily leave, and I would never support compulsory purchase for something like this.

This is why the rumblings of a move are happening... but I just see the solution as being one where we stop at around 50k, and live with it.  

[andycv]

18 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Absolutely. 

The area needs significant gentrification, but not the kind that forcibly, and completely,  displaces those currently living there. Some balance needs to be reached, but who's going to pay for it. 

The issue being that the stadium does need more room if it wants to exceed 50k capacity. 

Building a taller block of spacious apartments, with a communal outdoor area, in order to move a couple of roads worth of tenants,  might be palatable to some of them. Getting a new home that doesn't cost a fortune to heat, in the same area... will appeal to some.

But ultimately there will always be some for whom it is a family home that they will never voluntarily leave, and I would never support compulsory purchase for something like this.

This is why the rumblings of a move are happening... but I just see the solution as being one where we stop at around 50k, and live with it.  

The answer will be extending the Doug Ellis over the road or even closing the road, I expect.....  We will see what is what when they announce the detail of the master plan and phase 2 of the redevelopment.

[MrBlack]

8 minutes ago, andycv said:

The answer will be extending the Doug Ellis over the road or even closing the road, I expect.....  We will see what is what when they announce the detail of the master plan and phase 2 of the redevelopment.

But that needs the compulsory purchase of houses on holte road/mcgregor close. Its not happening.

Edit: the shadow the stadium would cast over those houses means it won't get through planning unless those houses aren't there.

More likely we could buy some of the grounds of the Aston Hall Estate to further expand the trinity, but suspect there's something in the way of that too. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by MrBlack

[andycv]

7 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

But that needs the compulsory purchase of houses on holte road/mcgregor close. Its not happening.

Edit: the shadow the stadium would cast over those houses means it won't get through planning unless those houses aren't there.

More likely we could buy some of the grounds of the Aston Hall Estate to further expand the trinity, but suspect there's something in the way of that too. 

I don't think it would.  I suspect there is an answer to this!

[sidcow]

1 hour ago, wishywashy said:

Call me crazy, but I'm not overly keen on the idea of forcibly evicting thousands, likely with huge attachments to the club, so that there aren't any poors (god forbid) within the vicinity of the new Aston Villa Megastore. How on earth does this have 150+ likes?

 

47 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Absolutely. 

The area needs significant gentrification, but not the kind that forcibly, and completely,  displaces those currently living there. Some balance needs to be reached, but who's going to pay for it. 

The issue being that the stadium does need more room if it wants to exceed 50k capacity. 

Building a taller block of spacious apartments, with a communal outdoor area, in order to move a couple of roads worth of tenants,  might be palatable to some of them. Getting a new home that doesn't cost a fortune to heat, in the same area... will appeal to some.

But ultimately there will always be some for whom it is a family home that they will never voluntarily leave, and I would never support compulsory purchase for something like this.

This is why the rumblings of a move are happening... but I just see the solution as being one where we stop at around 50k, and live with it.  

We've been all around the wrekin on this very thread already but the fact is without area masterplans and compulsory purchase orders most of the population would be living in Wattle and Daub hovels or mid victorian slums full of squalor, damp, mass shared toilet and washing facilities and tiny rooms. 

The housing round there, indeed a lot of UK housing is very poor quality and desperately needs replacing. No longer fit for purpose, damp, drafty expensive to maintain and very very expensive to heat. 

The UK is going to have to go through a lot of pain to meet net zero standards REGARDLESS of football stadiums.  Ladywood is about to be completely flattened and rebuilt for just this reason. 

The trick is to avoid the 50's and 60's mistakes of moving everyone into high rise blocks miles away from the local community. 

I expect the 2010's version is to give them cash and they can then decide where they want to go. Into one of the new modern apartment buildings mixed with terrace houses in the locality or go and buy a similar family home elsewhere. 

But this is going to happen in Aston and elsewhere sooner or later regardless.  I suspect the council would openly welcome a responsible development partner. 

The UK, the world's 6th largest economy has the oldest housing stock in Europe. As with most stuff here we've massively underinvestedin housing for years forcing many to live in outdated poor quality housing the rest of the world left behind a long time ago. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by sidcow

[MrBlack]

4 minutes ago, sidcow said:

 

We've been all around the wrekin on this very thread already but the fact is without area masterplans and compulsory purchase orders most of the population would be living in Wattle and Daub hovels or mid victorian slums full of squalor, damp, mass shared toilet and washing facilities and tiny rooms. 

The housing round there, indeed a lot of UK housing is very poor quality and desperately needs replacing. No longer fit for purpose, damp, drafty expensive to maintain and very very expensive to heat. 

The UK is going to have to go through a lot of pain to meet net zero standards REGARDLESS of football stadiums.  Ladywood is about to be completely flattened and rebuilt for just this reason. 

The trick is to avoid the 50's and 60's mistakes of moving everyone into high rise blocks miles away from the local community. 

I expect the 2010's version is to give them cash and they can then decide where they want to go. Into one of the new modern apartment buildings mixed with terrace houses in the locality or go and buy a similar family home elsewhere. 

But this is going to happen in Aston and elsewhere sooner or later regardless.  I suspect the council would openly welcome a responsible development partner. 

Compulsory purchase for that aim I would support. But purely for stadium expansion desires I wouldn't. 

If, as a by product, it means land becomes available for other purposes that we can put forward a genuine "this benefits villa, the community, and saves the tax payer money"  then great.

Maybe common sense will prevail, but makes me wonder how many decades will pass before any movement is actually seen.

[Villatillidie95]

We shouldnt do anything like compulsory purchase orders, but we have wealthy enough owners to approach households directly, offering a premium of say 25-50% of the purchase price for their house. This would be completely voluntary, and a lot of residents will want to accept this offer. They can take this offer, go around the corner and then buy an identical house closer to the high street, nearer the petrol station and takeaways there.

Many would relish the opportunity to be given £250,000 for their terrace, they will then take that money, pay 180 for an identical house around the corner near ettington road, prestbruy road, bevington road etc and pocket the difference. This will allow for expansion. Now this isnt even an urgent or immediate thing as im not convinced at this current time that we can sustain huge numbers week in week out, so the club could plan it, approach people, make offers, allow them access to information if they want it. Bigger premiums could be offered. none of this is controversial or compulsory

[sidcow]

1 minute ago, MrBlack said:

Maybe common sense will prevail, but makes me wonder how many decades will pass before any movement is actually seen.

There are (supposed) targets on Net Zero UK in order to help save the planet so I don't see it being decades. 

Hopefully Labour has a more cohesive plan instead of the Tories usual lip service. 

[OutByEaster?]

Just a reminder that no one is actually talking about moving, it's a twitter storm based around a couple of comments suggesting it and a million replies shouting no.

Also that phase 2 of the redevelopment doesn't involve the redevelopment of the Doug Ellis Stand and that the club currently has no plans to do that.

 

[MrBlack]

Just now, sidcow said:

There are (supposed) targets on Net Zero UK in order to help save the planet so I don't see it being decades. 

Hopefully Labour has a more cohesive plan instead of the Tories usual lip service. 

Hottest worldwide day ever in the history of global records two days ago.

Without getting into an evironmental debate, you may be right that these supposed targets become more rigid ones, and maybe things will move quicker than I expect. I hope they do.

[bannedfromHandV]

1 hour ago, wishywashy said:

Call me crazy, but I'm not overly keen on the idea of forcibly evicting thousands, likely with huge attachments to the club, so that there aren't any poors (god forbid) within the vicinity of the new Aston Villa Megastore. How on earth does this have 150+ likes?

I don’t think many of the local population have any attachment to the club, not that it makes it okay to forcibly evict them.

[MrBlack]

1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said:

Just a reminder that no one is actually talking about moving, it's a twitter storm based around a couple of comments suggesting it and a million replies shouting no.

Also that phase 2 of the redevelopment doesn't involve the redevelopment of the Doug Ellis Stand and that the club currently has no plans to do that.

 

Indeed.

Do we have any information from the club on the thoughts for phase 2 and how that might achieve nearly 10k more seats through just trinity development?

[Davkaus]

The answer is very simple, build taller, not wider.

Big glass floor on the stadium roof with 20k people sat up there watching the game through their feet. Optionally with an extra bar only available to Aston Villa Super Platinum Extreme members.

[sidcow]

We also don't know what Heck thinks about all this.  He might do more work on checking the robustness of the current season ticket waiting list and see this as a wasted opportunity to earn revenue if he thinks he can get those bums on seats.

All we know is The North Stand is definitely going ahead and Villa Live is postponed in lieu of a probably temporary enhancement of the former Stumps building.

He might have radical plans for the rest of the stadium Purslow wasn't interested in.  He may be able sell a better story to the owners to invest the money.

Edited July 5, 2023 by sidcow

[The Fun Factory]

1 hour ago, MrBlack said:

Absolutely. 

The area needs significant gentrification, but not the kind that forcibly, and completely,  displaces those currently living there. Some balance needs to be reached, but who's going to pay for it. 

The issue being that the stadium does need more room if it wants to exceed 50k capacity. 

Building a taller block of spacious apartments, with a communal outdoor area, in order to move a couple of roads worth of tenants,  might be palatable to some of them. Getting a new home that doesn't cost a fortune to heat, in the same area... will appeal to some.

But ultimately there will always be some for whom it is a family home that they will never voluntarily leave, and I would never support compulsory purchase for something like this.

This is why the rumblings of a move are happening... but I just see the solution as being one where we stop at around 50k, and live with it.  

The lack of space isn't the issue, it is the transport network which the club has little control over. No amount of cpo's will change that.

[sne]

Unpopular opinion perhaps but a stadium built in installments or rebuilt in different sections and eras is (almost) always going to be a bit of a Frankenstein's stadium. Some areas are not going to be fit for modern purposes and maybe even unsafe, and the service is gonna be lacking or at least difficult to get right. 

It's historic, charming and a important part of our identity, but it's also going to hold us back a bit when it comes to maximizing our revenue compared to what a new stadium or a complete rebuild likely would have.

Owners seem fine with that trade off and so am I but the steps where we are now where they increase the price but not the quality of the experience (off the pitch) might sting a bit for some who are caught inbetween. Narrow concourses, poor services, not enough toilets and so on for a lot more money while another part of the stadium gets a spruce up. That's probably only OK as long as we keep winning.

Anyway, will be interesting to see how it turns out.