Tony Xia (no longer involved with AVFC)

[snowychap]

 

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

1 hour ago, paul1984 said:

I meant in actual real terms of wages, player transfers, etc.

Go and look at the picture in the tweet.

Investing activities relates to net transfer activity plus money out for a tangible fixed asset.

Operating activities are just that - operating activities (i.e. net incomings or outgoings - outgoings in our case, obviously - related to the operation of the business that are not investing activities).

Also look at page 33 of the accounts for Recon Sports Limited - pdf available from here

Quote

Companies House

RECON SPORTS LIMITED

Company number 05891280

Note 20, where you'll find a breakdown of the £20.914m figure that is related to the operating activities (it's basically the operating loss - £14.4m - plus/minus various things including non cash items such as depreciation/amortization and profits on disposals of player registrations - all of which is c£6.5m).

Edited June 22, 2018 by snowychap

[paul1984]

48 minutes ago, TheEgo said:

You'll know then that 45m divided by 12 is 3.75m a month alone before tax and other bills. Kinda disproved your own point

We'll see.

[paul1984]

11 minutes ago, snowychap said:

 

Also look at page 33 of the accounts for Recon Sports Limited - pdf available from here

Note 20, where you'll find a breakdown of the £20.914m figure that is related to the operating activities (it's basically the operating loss - £14.4m - plus/minus various things including non cash items such as depreciation/amortization and profits on disposals of player registrations - all of which is c£6.5m).

So its a 15 million pound loss for last year like reported yet we took out 45 million in loans....?

Edited June 22, 2018 by paul1984

[snowychap]

3 minutes ago, paul1984 said:

So its a 15 million pound loss for last year like reported yet we took out 45 million in loans....?

Increase in other borrowings was £47.5m.

[paul1984]

3 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Increase in other borrowings was £47.5m.

alright 47.5m.......

I'll be honest this sounds like accountancy bollocks to me at the moment rather than you brought in X and Y went out and the difference is 14.4m which is simple. I'm really not interested in amortisation, that's for FFP.

Can you explain it more?

[snowychap]

6 minutes ago, paul1984 said:

alright 47.5m.......

I'll be honest this sounds like accountancy bollocks to me at the moment rather than you brought in X and Y went out and the difference is 14.4m which is simple. I'm really not interested in amortisation, that's for FFP.

Can you explain it more?

I don't think there's any point if you're going to write off the figures behind running a business as 'accountancy bollocks'.

I have already explained that the cashflow statement says:

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

£21m for operating activities, £16m for investing activities and just under £11m reducing cash and cash equivalents owed (an overdraft).

And that the operating activities number is further broken down as follows:

32 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Note 20, where you'll find a breakdown of the £20.914m figure that is related to the operating activities (it's basically the operating loss - £14.4m - plus/minus various things including non cash items such as depreciation/amortization and profits on disposals of player registrations - all of which is c£6.5m).

 

Edited June 22, 2018 by snowychap

[eholm]

1 hour ago, TheEgo said:

totally missed the point. We are that broke that WE have accepted less money than OWED to get it a few months early. You don't do that as standard practice. It is NOT how the system works. And as for Gil just because you haven't heard about it, doesn't mean it's not so. We settled 3 months early at a reduced rate for example. They owe us 3m to be paid in June and we say in April can we have the cash now and we'll accept 2m (these figures are just an illustration) This isn't the actions of a club in a good state. Add this to already borrowing against next months parachute payment (so already spent, gone) AND the money coming in from the Gov for the HS2 stuff, it paints a really bad picture. Those are reasonable facts so whilst all us guys don't know everything. there is more than enough information on Companies house, Company Check and other mediums to at least warrant a worried frame of mind, that's all it is WORRY. Will we pay next months bills? Who f**king knows? I don't like this feeling for my club. You don't feel that way. that's OK too, neither is right or wrong. The whole point of a forum is to debate and discuss, if we're all just to have the same view, we may as well just close as we'll all be saying the same thing. I hate this sniping and creating a 'side' to choose mentality. It's BS (that's not aimed at anyone specifically and certainly not you. 

 

Excellent post Sir. 

[paul1984]

8 minutes ago, snowychap said:

I don't think there's any point if you're going to write off the figures behind running a business as 'accountancy bollocks'.

I have already explained that the cashflow statement says:

And that the operating activities number is further broken down as follows:

 

Alright lets try asking a few direct questions.

Was the loss last year 14.4m?

If so why has the club borrowed 45m?

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, paul1984 said:

Alright lets try asking a few direct questions.

Was the loss last year 14.4m?

If so why has the club borrowed 45m?

I've already directly answered this in a number of posts above but I'll go one last time (*with a bit of added info):

*The club made an operating loss before player transactions of £41m*

The club made an operating loss after player transactions of £14.4m

Cash flow used in operating activities was this £14.4m operating loss after player transactions plus c. £6.5m of other cash movements as explained in note 20 (link provided earlier) - £20.9m (a)

Net cash used in investing activities (incomings and outgoing cash for player transfers mostly but also for tangible fixed assets) - £15.9m (b)

Net increase in cash and cash equivalents (reduction in overdraft) - £10.5m (c)

a + b + c = £c£47.5m (roundings, obviously).

[paul1984]

2 minutes ago, snowychap said:

I've already directly answered this in a number of posts above but I'll go one last time (*with a bit of added info):

*The club made an operating loss before player transactions of £41m*

The club made an operating loss after player transactions of £14.4m

Cash flow used in operating activities was this £14.4m operating loss after player transactions plus c. £6.5m of other cash movements as explained in note 20 (link provided earlier) - £20.9m (a)

Net cash used in investing activities (incomings and outgoing cash for player transfers mostly but also for tangible fixed assets) - £15.9m (b)

Net increase in cash and cash equivalents (reduction in overdraft) - £10.5m (c)

a + b + c = £c£47.5m (roundings, obviously).

Fine so its a real loss of 14.4m for the year with the rest of this 47.5m being financial reorganisation?

[snowychap]

25 minutes ago, paul1984 said:

Fine so its a real loss of 14.4m for the year with the rest of this 47.5m being financial reorganisation?

Yes and no. The £14.4m is after player transactions - so including all sorts of things which you'd class as 'accounting bollocks'. The figure not including player transactions is different*.

You can't have things both ways.

The figure for the increase in other borrowings is for cash in and out during the year, i.e. cashflow.

*Edit: Though it is still arrived at after 'accounting bollocks'.

Edited June 22, 2018 by snowychap

[paul1984]

8 minutes ago, snowychap said:

No. The £14.4m is after player transactions - so including all sorts of things which you'd class as 'accounting bollocks'.

You can't have things both ways.

Well, at the end of our discussion I have deduced nothing from you.

The media says we lost 14.4m last year I don't understand why you say differently.

You say we borrowed 45m and pointed it out in part of the accounts which is fine but then seemingly try and make out like its 'new debt' rather than replacing old debts +14.4m.

I've had an accountant before and it was always really simple so yea I'm afraid I am putting this down to 'accounting bollocks' like amortisation which is important for FFP but the rest of us are trying to find out the real position of the club aka profit/loss accounts.

Edited June 22, 2018 by paul1984

[snowychap]

16 minutes ago, paul1984 said:

Well, at the end of our discussion I have deduced nothing from you.

That is strikingly obvious.

16 minutes ago, paul1984 said:

The media says we lost 14.4m last year I don't understand why you say differently.

I'm not. Please read what I've written above.

16 minutes ago, paul1984 said:

You say we borrowed 45m and pointed it out in part of the accounts which is fine but then seemingly try and make out like its 'new debt' rather than replacing old debts +14.4m.

I don't say anything.

The cashflow statement says various things including how this figure is arrived at.

16 minutes ago, paul1984 said:

I've had an accountant before and it was always really simple so yea I'm afraid I am putting this down to 'accounting bollocks' like amortisation which is important for FFP but the rest of us are trying to find out the real position of the club aka profit/loss accounts.

That is a really daft thing to write. The £14.4m operating loss after player transactions is arrived at after 'accounting bollocks like amortization'.

 

I have genuinely tried to assist you in understanding some of these numbers as you appear to lack any inclination to go and read these figures for yourself even though they are readily available and you claimed to have done so earlier (Have you seen the accounts? Yes).

I definitely wish I hadn't bothered. I shan't be bothering any more.

Edited June 22, 2018 by snowychap

[hippo]

Our other accountant on here @Risso also referenced a loan of around £50m in the accounts presumably the same loan @snowychap is talking about.

If there is such a loan in the accounts - then there is - it can't negotiated, because we don't know where it went , or we didn't need a £45m loan , or we don't agree with it - If its there, its there !!!  

[snowychap]

@hippo Risso is one, I'm not.

[hippo]

8 minutes ago, snowychap said:

@hippo Risso is one, I'm not.

Well there still might be an opening for you at VP !

[paul1984]

22 minutes ago, hippo said:

Our other accountant on here @Risso also referenced a loan of around £50m in the accounts presumably the same loan @snowychap is talking about.

If there is such a loan in the accounts - then there is - it can't negotiated, because we don't know where it went , or we didn't need a £45m loan , or we don't agree with it - If its there, its there !!!  

Indeed and surely the point is what was the money for! for instance part of it is mentioned on this thread to pay an overdraft etc so its not new debt its shuffling chairs.

[hippo]

19 minutes ago, paul1984 said:

Indeed and surely the point is what was the money for! for instance part of it is mentioned on this thread to pay an overdraft etc so its not new debt its shuffling chairs.

Sadly new or existing its still debt - its something any new owner will have to service. 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

@hippo Risso is one, I'm not.

Snowy,

Can you answer this....particularly as the main theme of our problem is cash flow.....and murmurings of not getting money out of china, seems to have raised its ugly head.

Where is the substantial deposit in a UK bank The owner is purported to have undertaken to satisfy the League of a fit and proper person, when he took over Villa?.....Would that money not have helped in our hour of need or is it just pie in the sky?.....and if so, what was the league supposedly satisfied with?

Edited June 22, 2018 by TRO

[TRO]

1 hour ago, paul1984 said:

Indeed and surely the point is what was the money for! for instance part of it is mentioned on this thread to pay an overdraft etc so its not new debt its shuffling chairs.

When Deceit or incompetency is at play.....There is that much shuffling around, it takes operatives from Bletchley Park to decipher it.

Its all very well, folk saying read the accounts....Its understanding them and then knowing where the club stands, is another thing.

I am not talking about understanding a simple set of Accounts, I'm talking about understanding Aston Villas.

I know I don't.