Awol Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 20 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: to be fair I haven't been able to find the radio interview that Steph is paraphrasing from so don't know exactly what was said , but wasn't there a whole series of debates on TV , articles in papers etc prior to the vote where both sides spelt out exactly what a vote for their side meant ? Take control of our borders /immigration etc was used throughout so clearly it was on the agenda as part of the In / Out Question , which didn't really delve into any policy in itself , just the question "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union? " Presumably when leave won , immigration control was therefore endorsed ..unless 52% of the voters really did vote just to get an extra £350m to the NHS , but as we've been repeatedly told the 52% voted because they are racist , I don't think that can be true Well Remain said a vote to leave was a vote to leave the single market - as did leave. "I'll pull the UK out of the Single Market after Brexit" David Cameron confirmed Sunday that he will pull Britain out of the single market if there is a vote to leave the European Union at the upcoming referendum. The prime minister told the BBC’s Andrew Marr show that it would be impossible to copy the Norwegian model by remaining inside the trading bloc despite being outside the EU because that would mean accepting freedom of movement and trade rules made in Brussels. More on link Thats seems pretty cut and dried to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 11 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: A bit like I'm hoping to ride Little Mix and all three of the Beverly Sisters. Isn't one of them dead ? not questioning your lifestyle choice , just thinking it should at least be relatively easy to tick one of them off your list 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Just now, tonyh29 said: Isn't one of them dead ? not questioning your lifestyle choice , just thinking it should at least be relatively easy to tick one of them off your list I wanted it to mimic the whole rainbow alliance of leavers 'preferences', so I quite specifically said all three. I don't just throw this shit together. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post HanoiVillan Posted January 9, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted January 9, 2017 3 hours ago, blandy said: It's a pretty safe starting point. While there's a party system, listening to most politicians is like listening to a sheep burp. While I do take the point, I personally find it devalues someone's criticism of politicians if they can't point to one they don't mind, or at least something that one has done that they don't mind. They're all shit, all the time is not, IMO, a credible position to take. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 9, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted January 9, 2017 30 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: They're all shit, all the time is not, IMO, a credible position to take Totally agree. I wasn't trying to say they were. Merely that like salesmen and various other professions, erring on the side of caution is no bad thing. There seem to be at least 3 types of MPs - the ones who become MPs because it's the sort of job a chap does. those who become MPs to change things/help people/represent people and those who are somewhere on a greasy pole trying to scrabble that little bit higher, or hold on to where they are. Sometimes a combination of those three. Any of the first or the last category are not to be trusted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 16 hours ago, peterms said: Yes, it is. In the last 40 years or so, we've seen a lot of change in the way racism is dealt with. It used to be tolerated much more than now. What is acceptable in the workplace, on tv, at football grounds, at comedy venues is now very different than in those days. Some people hate that change. They sneer at "political correctness", which often means resenting being called out for being a racist scumbag. The dialogue has changed, because they don't feel comfortable about expressing their hatred openly, for fear of being embarrassed by being challenged, knowing it's quite likely they will be challenged and that the old trope of "I was only joking, where's your sense of humour gone" won't wash. They resent that, deeply and bitterly. We see some of them expressing these feelings in what they thought were private forums, closed facebook groups, speeches at private events, and sometimes they get noticed and publicised, making the perpetrators angry about being found out, like it was the fault of someome else and not the direct consequence of their own informed choice to express their racism. Because they still think they should be able to express these feelings without embarrassment or criticism. Immigration is often used as a proxy for these feelings. Some racists claim they aren't racist, they just have concerns about the ability of a "small island" to cope with "unlimited numbers of new entrants". The Brexit issue seems to have emboldened some of these racists. On the back of purported concerns about the impact of immigration, we see a reported increase in verbal and physical attacks on people perceived as being foreign. Yes, it's a nasty, dark, fringe issue. It's real, it is causing a lot of distress for many people, and those in favour of Brexit include among their ranks some people who are happy to stoke these sentiments if it advantages their political aims. If we fail to challenge this, we create the breeding ground for fascism. From voting for Brexit to closet fascism in one post. Move over Polly Toynbee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: While I do take the point, I personally find it devalues someone's criticism of politicians if they can't point to one they don't mind, or at least something that one has done that they don't mind. I suppose I could point to one of Ilona Staller's films. (If you have to Mooney then take care - don't do it at work) Edited January 9, 2017 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, snowychap said: Ilona Staller's she was on my flight to Budapest once , lots of men staring at her to the point I had to ask someone who she was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: While I do take the point, I personally find it devalues someone's criticism of politicians if they can't point to one they don't mind, or at least something that one has done that they don't mind. They're all shit, all the time is not, IMO, a credible position to take. Nye Bevan Give me time and I'll think of another one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 37 minutes ago, Awol said: From voting for Brexit to closet fascism in one post. Move over Polly Toynbee. If you think I've said that voting Brexit is equivalent to closet fascism, you should read it again - not what I said. If you don't see a connection between the way that some in the Brexit camp stoke fear, anxiety and hatred of "others", and what happens when fascist ideas start to gain a foothold, I'm surprised. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 17 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: she was on my flight to Budapest once , lots of men staring at her to the point I had to ask someone who she was No such problem with Teresa May, though, I'd wager? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 9, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted January 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Awol said: From voting for Brexit to closet fascism in one post. Move over Polly Toynbee. If you don't think/see/realise that " The Brexit issue seems to have emboldened some of these racists. " then you don't live in the UK...oh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 1 minute ago, peterms said: If you think I've said that voting Brexit is equivalent to closet fascism, you should read it again - not what I said. If you don't see a connection between the way that some in the Brexit camp stoke fear, anxiety and hatred of "others", and what happens when fascist ideas start to gain a foothold, I'm surprised. It was meant to be at least partly tongue in cheek as I think you realised, but the nascent fascist movements are where you'd expect to find them, on the Continent not in the UK. Fascism is the fringe of the fringe in our country and always has been, even more so than its bedfellow revolutionary communism. There is no constituency for it, however much it may suit the self image some political actors to dream otherwise. I don't dispute the unproven statement that racists voted for Brexit, although voting to control white immigration from Europe would seem counter intuitive if skin colour was a concern. What I find mildly irritating is the attempt to discredit a legitimate point of view (we're better out of the EU for a whole host of reasons) by saying, 'aaah, but the racists voted that way too', trying to imply some kind of guilt by association. There have been posts on this thread (not by you) to the effect of, 'not all leavers are racist but all racists are leavers'. For me that's as purile as saying 'not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims.' Bigotry of a different form, but bigotry nevertheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 1 minute ago, blandy said: If you don't think/see/realise that " The Brexit issue seems to have emboldened some of these racists. " then you don't live in the UK...oh! Hi Drat, missed you... I was in the UK for a few weeks in December and would like to thank all the racists for clearing every street I went down and every pub I walked into. Incredibly it looked and felt exactly as it did the last time I was home in May. Y'know, before Brexit was a thing and half the country turned into neo-Nazis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 Just now, snowychap said: No such problem with Teresa May, though, I'd wager? tbf it was around 2001 and I'm not sure I'd heard of Theresa May back then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Awol said: I don't dispute the unproven statement that racists voted for Brexit, although voting to control white immigration from Europe would seem counter intuitive if skin colour was a concern. What I find mildly irritating is the attempt to discredit a legitimate point of view (we're better out of the EU for a whole host of reasons) by saying, 'aaah, but the racists voted that way too', trying to imply some kind of guilt by association. Well no. The original point that brought about this discussion was about May treating immigration as the red line for negotiations. That implies that "we're better out of the EU for a whole host of reasons" doesn't really matter and that it's all about immigration. The fear, anxiety and hatred of others is very much a 'thing' here. Maybe not in your face, but it's a big thing in people's attitudes towards certain groups. Quote Hi Drat, missed you... I was in the UK for a few weeks in December and would like to thank all the racists for clearing every street I went down and every pub I walked into. Incredibly it looked and felt exactly as it did the last time I was home in May. Y'know, before Brexit was a thing and half the country turned into neo-Nazis. Just because people weren't openly saying things to you or near you doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It does. In exactly the same way Pete described. Edited January 9, 2017 by StefanAVFC 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 26 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: tbf it was around 2001 and I'm not sure I'd heard of Theresa May back then Teresa not Theresa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 30 minutes ago, Awol said: It was meant to be at least partly tongue in cheek as I think you realised... I don't dispute the unproven statement that racists voted for Brexit, although voting to control white immigration from Europe would seem counter intuitive if skin colour was a concern. Yes, I was hoping the comparison with someone so right wing as to be a member of the SDP was lighthearted. On the racism point, it's quite possible for white people to be racist towards other white people. For example, I looked on the Sun website today because I heard they criticised the government over the health shambles, and the very top story I saw (it's moved now) was some hate piece about two travellers who went shopping for baby milk wearing pyjamas, and how disgusting this was. The only possible aim of the piece was to reinforce and validate hatred against travellers. That is both an example of racism among white people, and an example of the continually repeated actions of some parts of this society in fostering and legitimising the kind of attitude towards other groups, defined by race, religion, nationality, or by things like disability, which echoes the kind of thing that leads to "ethnic cleansing". We won't move quickly towards yellow stars and Kristallnacht, but we have seen an increase in reports of racist abuse and violence. Rags like the Sun are culpable in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, snowychap said: Teresa not Theresa. You've been googling Theresa May again, haven't you, Snowy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Well no. The original point that brought about this discussion was about May treating immigration as the red line for negotiations. That implies that "we're better out of the EU for a whole host of reasons" doesn't really matter and that it's all about immigration. The fear, anxiety and hatred of others is very much a 'thing' here. Maybe not in your face, but it's a big thing in people's attitudes towards certain groups. Just because people weren't openly saying things to you or near you doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It does. In exactly the same way Pete described. Saying immigration is a red line signals two things; first it tells those who voted for Brexit that the Government isn't going back on its promise to implement the Brexit vote, secondly it tells the EU that the UK is not going to continue applying the four freedoms required for single market membership. Immigration won't be the only red line in those negotiations, but by getting it out there upfront that the UK isn't seeking single market membership on Brussels' terms she is beginning to clarify the UK's position - something you and many many others have been calling for. As for "fear, anxiety and hatred" being "a big thing in people's attitudes towards certain groups".. how do you measure and quantify that? Which people? Which groups? It's repeated by a lot of people who share your general outlook but I'm not sure on what basis you're saying it? The alleged spike in reported hate crimes? According to the PDF linked below that's largely untrue and based on some highly questionable reporting. Hate crimes: the facts behind the headlines Can't quote it on my phone but worth reading to get beyond the hyperbole surrounding this issue. Edited January 9, 2017 by Awol Tidying up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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