The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[OutByEaster?]

6 minutes ago, Awol said:

Continued common travel area with the UK, an open border with Ulster and increased national security capability for their own country. 

Not too bad really. 

So they get things to stay as they are now as long as they give something up?

 

 

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, Awol said:

No offence but that's just a bit childish. 

I know. But that's the level of comment from the likes of the Daily Mail website and such like.

[Awol]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

I know. But that's the level of comment from the likes of the Daily Mail website and such like.

My post was like a comment on the Daily Mail? 

[tonyh29]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

I know. But that's the level of comment from the likes of the Daily Mail website and such like.

But awol isn't the Daily Mail and he's attempting to engage in a serious debate on a subject  ... you're better than a Daily Mail retorte 

 

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, Awol said:

Yes it does. As noted illegal immigration can't be stopped at borders or entry points as long as people can come in as tourists, but illegally working is a different matter and can be controlled.

If you're not in the country to work then what's the point? 

You didn't answer the question, which is fine. I'd do the one that leaves no trace of my entry into the UK. I suspect many would do the same.

There are, we're told, lots of people in the UK illegally. Family of people here legally would be one reason to come (but not work), or people who set up criminal operations would be another, and then employ illegals to work for them would be another. Or people who slip in and then forge or get forged papers to fool legal but inattentive employers yet another. If you don't know they're here, you can't find them.

[Awol]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

So they get things to stay as they are now as long as they give something up?

 

 

UK is leaving the EU so obviously the situation changes. What is Ireland giving up by enhancing its own security? 

[blandy]

Just now, Awol said:

My post was like a comment on the Daily Mail? 

No, my post quotes were a deliberate Daily Mail UKIP voter commenter style in response to your post.

[Awol]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

You didn't answer the question, which is fine. I'd do the one that leaves no trace of my entry into the UK. I suspect many would do the same.

There are, we're told, lots of people in the UK illegally. Family of people here legally would be one reason to come (but not work), or people who set up criminal operations would be another, and then employ illegals to work for them would be another. Or people who slip in and then forge or get forged papers to fool legal but inattentive employers yet another. If you don't know they're here, you can't find them.

It's not that I didn't answer, you're not comparing like for like. Legal and illegal immigration are separate subjects, not least because one involves breaking the law and has penalties attached to it. 

[tonyh29]

Just now, blandy said:

. If you don't know they're here, you can't find them.

We don't have to , That's what we have these bad boys for

 

[Awol]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

No, my post quotes were a deliberate Daily Mail UKIP voter commenter style in response to your post.

Oh okay, cheers for that. 

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

But awol isn't the Daily Mail and he's attempting to engage in a serious debate on a subject  ... you're better than a Daily Mail retorte 

I know, you misunderstand. Awol put across Davis's argument, and I put across the argument against it, which will be and is made by the type of people who comment on the Daily Mail website and twitter and so on against anything that isn't an absolute hard and fast severe Brexit, with all foreigners banned and the UK "taking back control of immigration and not spending money on the EU.

[mjmooney]

15 minutes ago, Awol said:

an open border with Ulster

I assume you mean "Northern Ireland", rather than Ulster. 

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, Awol said:

you're not comparing like for like. Legal and illegal immigration are separate subjects, not least because one involves breaking the law and has penalties attached to it. 

There are 2 options for illegal entry into the UK under the Davis plan. The one you said - come as a tourist and overstay, where you are known to be here, and one where you legally enter another EU nation, Ireland, from the EU and then just walk across the open border between the EU and UK. They are both clearly possibilities under his scheme. One is traceable, the other not. Which is a massive flaw in his plan. that's the point.

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

I assume you mean "Northern Ireland", rather than Ulster. 

I assumed the Republic of Ireland.

[OutByEaster?]

9 minutes ago, Awol said:

UK is leaving the EU so obviously the situation changes. What is Ireland giving up by enhancing its own security? 

The key word there is enhancing. Ireland aren't leaving the EU, in lots of ways their situation isn't changing. What if Ireland are very happy with their own security thanks very much?

I think it's essentially a neat solution for us, but an awkward one for Ireland - assuming that they're quite happy with their own security and don't want to 'enhance' it by making it better for the UK and allowing the UK to access it's data, I don't see why they wouldn't just say no. 

Surely it's up to us to find a solution to a problem which is essentially ours and not to attempt to impose our will on another nation?

[StefanAVFC]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

It was my knee they operated on not my eyes im still young and vibrant and don't need Large print just yet but thanks for your consideration

to clarify you used one country in the world to support a point of view ( seems to be a pattern here , one billionanaire , one country  ) 

I wouldn't be so churlish  as to accuse you of having your head in the sand , so instead I gave some evidence and raised a suggestion in the form of a question that perhaps you ought to extend your world view 

nothing sinister , was just trying to help 

 

 

That doesn't work when I clearly acknowledged my point was based on living in one European country.

And the other thing, it clearly wasn't just 'one billionaire'. You know this, everyone else knows this, I have no idea of your continued insistence to bring this up when it's been explained multiple times to you.

Edited December 29, 2016 by StefanAVFC

[Awol]

36 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

The key word there is enhancing. Ireland aren't leaving the EU, in lots of ways their situation isn't changing. What if Ireland are very happy with their own security thanks very much?

I think it's essentially a neat solution for us, but an awkward one for Ireland - assuming that they're quite happy with their own security and don't want to 'enhance' it by making it better for the UK and allowing the UK to access it's data, I don't see why they wouldn't just say no. 

Surely it's up to us to find a solution to a problem which is essentially ours and not to attempt to impose our will on another nation?

It's not imposing our will, we can't do that to another sovereign country. It's a negotiation between equals to resolve a problem that has arisen as a result of the UK making a sovereign decision of its own to leave the EU. 

If the Irish decide against this solution that is ip to them, but as we share a land border with the Republic it isn't a problem the UK can solve unilaterally while maintaining an open internal border on the island. 

Other than ignoring the referendum what else would you suggest? 

[Awol]

47 minutes ago, blandy said:

I assumed the Republic of Ireland.

No I meant Ulster, a perfectly acceptable and interchangeable term with Northern Ireland - and quicker to type. 

It's like some people describing Londonderry as 'Derry. Personal choice. 

[OutByEaster?]

1 minute ago, Awol said:

Other than ignoring the referendum what else would you suggest? 

I think there will be an open border between the Republic and Northern Ireland. I'm a lot less sure that the Irish will agree to any sort of changes to their external border as a result - I think we'll be left with the problem of how to operate our security within that framework and I 'm guessing the answer will lie in the internal transport between Northern Ireland and the mainland. In an odd way we may end up with a Northern Ireland that has a more open border with the Republic than with the rest of the UK.

 

[Awol]

10 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think there will be an open border between the Republic and Northern Ireland. I'm a lot less sure that the Irish will agree to any sort of changes to their external border as a result - I think we'll be left with the problem of how to operate our security within that framework and I 'm guessing the answer will lie in the internal transport between Northern Ireland and the mainland. In an odd way we may end up with a Northern Ireland that has a more open border with the Republic than with the rest of the UK.

 

That's possible, but unless Davis is talking out of his hat (possible) I suspect he wouldn't have mentioned it unless Dublin was responding favourably to the idea. 

Closer intelligence integration with Ireland would benefit both countries and I doubt they'd bat away the offer without giving serious thought to the benefits.

Anyway as I've said to Enda before unless there is a high level of free trade between UK and EU post Brexit, I think they'll follow us out of the EU before too long as a matter of economic necessity.  

Edited December 29, 2016 by Awol