The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[brommy]

11 minutes ago, bickster said:

Well that and the extremely clever populous of Sunderland voting to leave when the only thing it has going for it is Nissan who told them all they'd probably have to leave the UK...

A very large French company that has several thousand employees in the UK, wrote to it's UK work force, urging a remain vote and hoping a possible leave result wouldn't damage the UK employees prospects. Communications subsequent to the leave result have stated an acceptance of the result and reinforced the company's commitment to further investment within the UK.

[brommy]

5 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

They will lose £70 a head of EU funding.

I can't see any factor going above that unless it's 'voting leave will provide Wales with £71 a head'.

 

Did you consider that Wales' decision might have been based on non-economic factors?

[mjmooney]

2 minutes ago, brommy said:

Did you consider that Wales' decision might have been based on non-economic factors?

They probably thought they were going to be able to stop immigration. From England. 

[StefanAVFC]

6 minutes ago, brommy said:

Did you consider that Wales' decision might have been based on non-economic factors?

Even stupider than I thought then.

[brommy]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

Even stupider than I thought then.

Do you perceive the Welsh to be stupid?

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, brommy said:

Do you perceive the Welsh to be stupid?

No.

I perceive a leave vote from a population with net positives ffrom the EU, voting to leave for "non-economic reasons" (ie taking back control or immigration), as stupid.

[markavfc40]

39 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Wales voting to leave the EU is the very definition of cutting your nose off to spite your face.

They will objectively be worse off outside of the EU.

Oh well, they've taken back control.

I think Wales is an example of a part of the UK with a large number of people with poor work prospects already with little money who have seen their wages stagnate, or fall in real terms, and have seen their public services decimated and instead of blaming the Tories austerity measures over the last 6 years they have chosen to blame it on Johnny Foreigner. I don’t think that makes them racist or xenophobic I just think some do genuinely think along the lines of we are already full, can’t support our own people, no decent jobs for those of us already here, our public services are at breaking point and it wouldn’t be like this if it wasn’t for being in the EU allowing every Tom, Dick or Harry in or perhaps I should say every Jakub, Franciszek and Adnan.

I think some people really struggling do genuinely believe that there will be an immediate upturn in their fortunes once we are out of the EU whereas I think for those worst off amongst us an already shit situation will only get worse.

You can’t blame those struggling voting for change as they may well have felt like they had f all to lose. They just voted for the wrong kind of change though and in fact should have voted for change a year earlier at the General election.

Edited December 12, 2016 by markavfc40

[StefanAVFC]

10 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I think Wales is an example of a part of the UK with a large number of people with poor work prospects already with little money who have seen their wages stagnate, or fall in real terms, and have seen their public services decimated and instead of blaming the Tories austerity measures over the last 6 years they have chosen to blame it on Johnny Foreigner. I don’t think that makes them racist or xenophobic I just think some do genuinely think along the lines of we are already full, can’t support our own people, no decent jobs for those of us already here, our public services are at breaking point and it wouldn’t be like this if it wasn’t for being in the EU allowing every Tom, Dick or Harry in or perhaps I should say every Jakub, Franciszek and Adnan.

I'm sorry Mark but it doesn't wash with me. It's making excuses for people.

Anyone is able to check the figures, yet they chose not to and vote the way they did.

Wales:

93% white British
1.8% white other

And how much of that immigration is focused around Cardiff anyway?

I have absolutely no sympathy for people who make decisions against their best interests when the factual information is freely available. (I found the figures in 10 seconds)

Edited December 12, 2016 by StefanAVFC

[brommy]

5 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

No.

I perceive a leave vote from a population with net positives ffrom the EU, voting to leave for "non-economic reasons" (ie taking back control or immigration), as stupid.

Just 52.5% of the Welsh then!

Seriously though, of all the leave voters I have spoken to, very few of them were convinced they would be economically better off outside the EU. Most think the long term economic outlook will be similar, a few think it may be worse. That some remain voters may believe lowering the priority of economic success below other factors is wrong, amounts simply to a difference of opinion. 

[brommy]

3 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I have absolutely no sympathy for people who make decisions against their best interests when the factual information is freely available. (I found the figures in 10 seconds)

Are they allowed to decide what is in their best interests?

[StefanAVFC]

2 minutes ago, brommy said:

Are they allowed to decide what is in their best interests?

Of course, but I was replying to Mark's post about their perceptions. And how those perceptions are easily disproved with 10 seconds of Googling.

I would be genuinely interested to hear a Welsh leave voter's thoughts on it. What reasons they had. The only people's I've seen are people from Merthyr Tydfil who were interviewed by the Guardian (02:06) who said:

"GET EM OUT"
"Something has got to change in this country, it's our country"
"600,000 coming in a week"

Merthyr voted 56% to leave despite having incredibly low levels of immigration, plenty of EU funding. What 'best interests' could someone from Merthyr have for voting out?

[tonyh29]

31 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

They just voted for the wrong kind of change though and in fact should have voted for change a year earlier at the General election.

you think Ed was going to commission a whole load of Commandments quarried from Welsh Stone to be placed every few miles along major roads  ,  and thus keep them employed for years to come  ... cause other than that I can't see what a blind bit of difference it would have made

[brommy]

There's definitely non-economic reasons why people voted to leave the EU. Opinions differ amongst voters of the same side so it's not surprising some 'leavers' don't agree with or understand some of the reasons why the majority voted to leave. I suspect the frustration and disbelief would be as strong if the vote had gone the other way.

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, brommy said:

There's definitely non-economic reasons why people voted to leave the EU. Opinions differ amongst voters of the same side so it's not surprising some 'leavers' don't agree with or understand some of the reasons why the majority voted to leave.

That isn't the point.

We're specifically talking about Wales here. What non-economic reasons could a Welsh person, living in a country that benefits to £70 a person from the EU, have for voting leave?

List some, please. I'm genuinely interested.

 

[Chindie]

There non-economic points of principle that might make someone chose to vote leave - migration, arguments of democratic deficit, etc etc. If I were Welsh and had those issues I'd probably hold my nose and take the benefit for the 'downside', given how much Wales benefits, but that's for then to decide.

I'd be surprised if Wales was better off in 10 years, all in all. But their choice.

[StefanAVFC]

2 minutes ago, Chindie said:

There non-economic points of principle that might make someone chose to vote leave - migration, arguments of democratic deficit, etc etc. If I were Welsh and had those issues I'd probably hold my nose and take the benefit for the 'downside', given how much Wales benefits, but that's for then to decide.

That's my point. Probably badly made.

Voting against their best interests for these non-economic reasons. Most of which can be disputed with facts.

Edited December 12, 2016 by StefanAVFC

[brommy]

31 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

That isn't the point.

We're specifically talking about Wales here. What non-economic reasons could a Welsh person, living in a country that benefits to £70 a person from the EU, have for voting leave?

List some, please. I'm genuinely interested.

 

You'd have to ask a Welsh person who voted leave. If you asked a few hundred, you would get a picture. I suspect you'd disagree with the majority of them but the opinions, and the result would be the same.

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

I'm sorry Mark but it doesn't wash with me. It's making excuses for people.

Anyone is able to check the figures, yet they chose not to and vote the way they did.

Wales:

93% white British
1.8% white other

And how much of that immigration is focused around Cardiff anyway?

I have absolutely no sympathy for people who make decisions against their best interests when the factual information is freely available. (I found the figures in 10 seconds)

They have been duped haven't they. They have chosen to believe the likes of Farage who presented themselves as anti establishment and champions of the working class and blamed all their woes on being in the EU.

Getting £70 per head from the EU will mean very little to someone who is living from day to day struggling to make ends meet and who doesn't think things can get much worse for them. The fact that they have failed to see the real reasons as to why their standards of living have gotten dramatically worse over the last half dozen years and why their public services are crumbling is perhaps ignorance on their part but I'd be pointing the finger more at those who fooled them.

[StefanAVFC]

11 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

They have been duped haven't they. They have chosen to believe the likes of Farage who presented themselves as anti establishment and champions of the working class and blamed all their woes on being in the EU.

Getting £70 per head from the EU will mean very little to someone who is living from day to day struggling to make ends meet and who doesn't think things can get much worse for them. The fact that they have failed to see the real reasons as to why their standards of living have gotten dramatically worse over the last half dozen years and why their public services are crumbling is perhaps ignorance on their part but I'd be pointing the finger more at those who fooled them.

I'd sympathise with people getting duped if the facts weren't so bloody easily accessible.

Although I definitely agree with the bolded too. It's a perfect storm.

[MakemineVanilla]

32 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

They have been duped haven't they. They have chosen to believe the likes of Farage who presented themselves as anti establishment and champions of the working class and blamed all their woes on being in the EU.

Getting 19p per day per head from the EU will mean very little to someone who is living from day to day struggling to make ends meet and who doesn't think things can get much worse for them. The fact that they have failed to see the real reasons as to why their standards of living have gotten dramatically worse over the last half dozen years and why their public services are crumbling is perhaps ignorance on their part but I'd be pointing the finger more at those who fooled them.

Fixed!