bickster Posted August 29, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 29, 2018 37 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: not to mention Thatcher never called Mandela a terrorist , she likened the ANC a terrorist organisation in response to them threatening British interests in SA ..but as I replied to Peter earlier , people don't' seem interested in facts , just what twitter tells them the interview itself shows one of May's (many) flaws that she can't deal with pressure or the cameras and re-enforces why she didn't win a majority against a weak opposition Actually, that's a little simplistic. Quote “I just remembered I did not answer the second part of the previous question put to me about the ANC, when the ANC says that they will target British companies. This shows what a typical terrorist organisation it is. I fought terrorism all my life and if more people fought it, and we were all more successful, we should not have it and I hope that everyone in this hall will think it is right to go on fighting terrorism. They will if they believe in democracy.” She is calling Mandela a terrorist by implication. If the ANC is a terrorist organisation, then Mandela as its head must, therefore, be a terrorist surely? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 21 minutes ago, bickster said: Actually, that's a little simplistic. She is calling Mandela a terrorist by implication. If the ANC is a terrorist organisation, then Mandela as its head must, therefore, be a terrorist surely? you are a CH4 reporter and I claim my £5 she said it in 1987 , Mandela wasn't the ANC leader at the time , that would have been Tambo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 29, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 29, 2018 9 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: you are a CH4 reporter and I claim my £5 she said it in 1987 , Mandela wasn't the ANC leader at the time , that would have been Tambo 2 You can't really be disputing that Mandela was head (not president) of the ANC at the time. Tambo was president because Mandela was still in jail. I think most of the world knew who the leader of the ANC was and it wasn't Tambo. Regardless of that, you'd have to be arguing that Mandela wasn't a member of the ANC to get anywhere with the argument because he was a member of the ANC, a terrorist organisation in Thatchers' eyes, he must, therefore, be a terrorist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 29, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted August 29, 2018 I saw an article earlier, linked from that Twitter. It covers Thatcher, Corbyn Mandela etc and various other stuff I didn't really know in any detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 29, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted August 29, 2018 Coughmandelawasaterrorist(butwitharighteouscause)cough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 29, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted August 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, Chindie said: Coughmandelawasaterrorist(butwitharighteouscause)cough. A long time ago, I heard an in depth interview with one of the other people who was tried and locked up alongside Mandela. It was touching and honest and dignified and much more, but he did say that yeah, they were a little bit naughty in some of the protest stuff they did. Maybe one man's (or woman's) freedom fighter is another's terrorist?. IIRC he did say that what they were locked up for (convicted of) they were innocent of, but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 29, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted August 29, 2018 Terrorism is a methodology. You can (and often are) be both a freedom fighter and a terrorist. The freedom fighter part is a matter of perspective, the terrorist bit isn't. If you use terrorist tactics, you're a terrorist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 29, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Chindie said: Terrorism is a methodology. You can (and often are) be both a freedom fighter and a terrorist. The freedom fighter part is a matter of perspective, the terrorist bit isn't. If you use terrorist tactics, you're a terrorist. Sure. Where do you draw the line between, say "Sabotage" and "terrorism" - because my hazy recollection of the radio interview was that they were accused of Sabotage (or similar, rather than actual (what I'd call) terror attacks. I think the guy said they didn't do the one they were accused of, but he intimated they "weren't exactly angels" with a sort of knowing laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, blandy said: I saw an article earlier, linked from that Twitter. It covers Thatcher, Corbyn Mandela etc and various other stuff I didn't really know in any detail. Strange article. As someone points out in the comments, he's built the whole thing on the premise that there is a meme that Corbyn was uniquely prescient in opposing apartheid, the evidence for which is one quote from one person. Whenever I've seen that Corbyn photo circulated, it's to make the point that he has demonstrated an active commitment to opposing racism over decades, not the ludicrously overblown claim the writer addresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 39 minutes ago, bickster said: You can't really be disputing that Mandela was head (not president) of the ANC at the time. Tambo was president because Mandela was still in jail. I think most of the world knew who the leader of the ANC was and it wasn't Tambo. Regardless of that, you'd have to be arguing that Mandela wasn't a member of the ANC to get anywhere with the argument because he was a member of the ANC, a terrorist organisation in Thatchers' eyes, he must, therefore, be a terrorist so in conclusion most of the world would be wrong , probably as they spend too much time on twitter ... in the words of the ANC themselves " The President is the political head and chief directing officer of the ANC " ... think that's a leader in any sense of the word , don't you ? Mandela wasn't the ANC leader before he went to jail either , he was head of the MK wing of the ANC ( a military wing no less and notably formed without the permission of ANC leader of the time Lutuli ) , I guess you could argue he was a leader within the ANC but not it's leader but we are going off track here ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, peterms said: Whenever I've seen that Corbyn photo circulated, it's to make the point that he has demonstrated an active commitment to opposing racism over decades, not the ludicrously overblown claim the writer addresses. ah yes the same way that he was always promoting peace when talking to the IRA argument I think his cause would have been better served had he not been protesting with a group whose solidarity was with a party promoting " one Settler , one bullet" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 6 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: ah yes the same way that he was always promoting peace when talking to the IRA argument I think his cause would have been better served had he not been protesting with a group whose solidarity was with a party promoting " one Settler , one bullet" So the charge is that Corbyn was taking part in a demo organised by a branch of the anti-apartheid movement which the writer claims was dominated by the RCG, who had a fondness for a slogan never formally adopted by the PAC? Well, that's pretty damning stuff. Fetch the tumbrils! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 12 minutes ago, peterms said: So the charge is that Corbyn was taking part in a demo organised by a branch of the anti-apartheid movement which the writer claims was dominated by the RCG, who had a fondness for a slogan never formally adopted by the PAC? Well, that's pretty damning stuff. Fetch the tumbrils! Sketchy evidence hasn’t usually stopped you .... I’ll start sharpening the blade 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 29, 2018 Moderator Share Posted August 29, 2018 His description of the Bullingdon Club was also rather tame in comparison to the reality of what they were Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 If ever the Chinese state decides to colonise the UK, deny my family basic rights, medicine, education, employment. If they shoot my friends and make me live under some tin outside the mine I defy death working in. Then, I'd like to think I could become a terrorist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 29, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, peterms said: Strange article. As someone points out in the comments, he's built the whole thing on the premise that there is a meme that Corbyn was uniquely prescient in opposing apartheid, the evidence for which is one quote from one person. Whenever I've seen that Corbyn photo circulated, it's to make the point that he has demonstrated an active commitment to opposing racism over decades, not the ludicrously overblown claim the writer addresses. Yes that seems fair comment. My take is that the writer seems to come from a standpoint of Conservatism, rather than neutrality. The parts about Corbyn do rather do as you say. Yet there’s something there in terms of how quite a number of his more credulous fan base tend to perhaps over state his difference from everyone else, and this photo is often used as a contrast and compare thing for that purpose. Anyway I learnt a bit more background I didn’t know from the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 18 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: If ever the Chinese state decides to colonise the UK, deny my family basic rights, medicine, education, employment. If they shoot my friends and make me live under some tin outside the mine I defy death working in. Then, I'd like to think I could become a terrorist. Would you target legitimate targets like Chinese soldiers or kill innocent civilians on your own side as part of this terrorism ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 She down wit de yoof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Just now, tonyh29 said: Would you target legitimate targets like Chinese soldiers or kill innocent civilians on your own side as part of this terrorism ? Well we're going a long way down the hypothetical road here, I'd probably really be too chicken shit to do much about anything. But the big brave freedom fighter me thinks omelettes and eggs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted August 29, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted August 29, 2018 2 hours ago, blandy said: Sure. Where do you draw the line between, say "Sabotage" and "terrorism" - because my hazy recollection of the radio interview was that they were accused of Sabotage (or similar, rather than actual (what I'd call) terror attacks. I think the guy said they didn't do the one they were accused of, but he intimated they "weren't exactly angels" with a sort of knowing laugh. Terrorism can encompass sabotage actions. Mandela was a terrorist. One with a justifiable and righteous cause, and one that showed restraint, but a spade is a spade. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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