Jareth Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 2 hours ago, Chindie said: "From the river to the sea doesn't mean what you think it means" Yes it's a convenient distractionary conversation topic for us all to be bickering over, filing the space where perhaps we should be talking about what is happening on the ground right now in Gaza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 31, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 31, 2023 31 minutes ago, Jareth said: Yes it's a convenient distractionary conversation topic for us all to be bickering over, filing the space where perhaps we should be talking about what is happening on the ground right now in Gaza. If you don't want to be distracted, post in the relevant topic, this topic is about the Labour Party and so is the story, nobody made you read it. I can just see it now, Kier Starmer decides to disassociate his party from a particular MPs actions just to stop the posters of Villa Talk discussing the Israel / Palestine situation. That must have been his thought process, I'm sure of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 31, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 31, 2023 Half an hour of someone anticipating a long PR meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted October 31, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2023 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 31, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 31, 2023 40 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: This is all fine because... *drifts off into silence, walks out back entrance* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 It's not the greatest advert for what is to come when Labour get into power - might make a few voters not bother voting at all 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 7 hours ago, bickster said: If you don't want to be distracted, post in the relevant topic, this topic is about the Labour Party and so is the story, nobody made you read it. From the river to the sea - got McDonald suspended no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 The days of Britain wielding much influence in the Middle East are long gone. Even less for a politician who isn’t yet in power. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 9 minutes ago, meregreen said: The days of Britain wielding much influence in the Middle East are long gone. Even less for a politician who isn’t yet in power. You could argue it’s the Middle East wielding power on the opposition leader when you see the money he’s received from the pro Israeli lobby. Tens of thousands. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 31, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 31, 2023 18 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: You could argue it’s the Middle East wielding power on the opposition leader when you see the money he’s received from the pro Israeli lobby. Tens of thousands. Careful now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted November 1, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 1, 2023 The job is to be less detestable than the leader of the most vile political mob this country has ever produced. It'd be nice if he tried not to make it look so difficult. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 1, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 1, 2023 14 hours ago, chrisp65 said: You could argue it’s the Middle East wielding power on the opposition leader when you see the money he’s received from the pro Israeli lobby. Tens of thousands. Source? Donations from abroad aren’t allowed are they? And looking at his register of members interests entry on the guvmint website doesn’t show much more than tickets to football matches and stuff like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 8 minutes ago, blandy said: Source? Donations from abroad aren’t allowed are they? And looking at his register of members interests entry on the guvmint website doesn’t show much more than tickets to football matches and stuff like that I’m in work right now, so the googlies are problematic. The figure was £50k and I think from memory included a fact finding trip to Israel that was paid for. I’ll dig it out later. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 I can’t do anything from here, but on my phone I can see it was Sir Trevor Chinn, £50,000 in 2020. Article in the Jewish Chronicle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 1, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 1, 2023 8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I can’t do anything from here, but on my phone I can see it was Sir Trevor Chinn, £50,000 in 2020. Article in the Jewish Chronicle. Thanks. https://www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=25353 Quote Name of donor: Trevor Chinn Address of donor: private Amount of donation or nature and value if donation in kind: £50,000 for my campaign for leadership of the Labour Party Date received: 26 February 2020 Date accepted: 23 March 2020 Donor status: individual Seems like a decent sort, this Trevor Chinn, from his Wikipedia etc. Loaded and gives money to all kinds of causes. Very much Two state solution for Israel Palestine, which is good, if taken at face value of the text on the internets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 17 hours ago, chrisp65 said: I'm reminded of a characterisation of Boris Johnson, sitting silently and watching while a mob forms up, doing nothing while they light their torches and gather their pitchforks, then waiting until they set off after a target, only to charge to the front yelling "everyone, follow me!". A dreary, uninspiring, safe pair of hands that doesn't appear to be corrupt is still a cut above who we've been governed by for years, but public opinion just leads him by the nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 33 minutes ago, blandy said: Thanks. https://www.theyworkforyou.com/regmem/?p=25353 Seems like a decent sort, this Trevor Chinn, from his Wikipedia etc. Loaded and gives money to all kinds of causes. Very much Two state solution for Israel Palestine, which is good, if taken at face value of the text on the internets. I saw he was a philanthropist on Wikipedia, but mostly it describes him as a political activist and active lobbyist for Israel. Have heard an awful lot about the two state solution from figures who are also witnessing in real time the creation of a single state for Israelis, and doing very little to fight for a two state solution. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 1, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 1, 2023 17 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Because I've been reading and trying to find out whether it's a clear cut case of Israel doing war crimes (to me, yeah, obviously) in terms of "is it a slam dunk, or is there some dispute - like because technically Palestine isn't a Country, or some such weaseling - A couple of things have occurred to me. Firstly, on the Russia one - That's a slam dunk. Plus Russia is a threat to the UK, not an ally. It's pretty easy to say "Yep, war crimes" Second, on the Israel one - There seems to be some legal debate whether the atrocities Israel (and Hamas) has done count as war crimes or not, sort of based around legal technicalities. And, unlike Russia, Israel is not a hostile state to the the UK, but seen as an ally. It's easy for you or I to say, as we do "yep. Israel has done atrocities, clear war crimes". For a (soon to be, likely) leader of an ally, and a lawyer to boot, to say to Israel "you done war crimes" is harder, politically. In politics world, national leaders and senior politicians tend not to be that black and white about allies' actions, because it ends up being what they'd call "unhelpful". By that I mean if a leader says "Yep, our ally, Israel has clearly done war crimes" they get asked next "are you going to work to ensure those responsible get taken to the International Court in the Hague?" to which the only answer would be "Yes". And then Israel (or whoever is the villain in any example) gets asked "The UK has stated that they will endeavour to take you to the Hague for war crimes, PM Netanyahu, what do you say in response?".. and you get an expression of sorrow or anger at the UK politician "stooping so low" and a withdrawal of passing intelligence from Mossad to the UK about Iranian plans to do [whatever] or info on terrorist threats to the UK not getting passed across. I have no sympathy with Netanhyahu at all, he's vile, but I kind of don't expect to see any main UK party leader, be that Sunak or Starmer, or whoever, to be so blunt as to say so, or to call him a war criminal (even though I think he clearly is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 1, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 1, 2023 3 minutes ago, Jareth said: I saw he was a philanthropist on Wikipedia, but mostly it describes him as a political activist and active lobbyist for Israel. Have heard an awful lot about the two state solution from figures who are also witnessing in real time the creation of a single state for Israelis, and doing very little to fight for a two state solution. Yeah, absolutely. I have no idea on him, but it's why I said "if taken at face value" - for the reason you say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 35 minutes ago, blandy said: Because I've been reading and trying to find out whether it's a clear cut case of Israel doing war crimes (to me, yeah, obviously) in terms of "is it a slam dunk, or is there some dispute - like because technically Palestine isn't a Country, or some such weaseling - A couple of things have occurred to me. Firstly, on the Russia one - That's a slam dunk. Plus Russia is a threat to the UK, not an ally. It's pretty easy to say "Yep, war crimes" Second, on the Israel one - There seems to be some legal debate whether the atrocities Israel (and Hamas) has done count as war crimes or not, sort of based around legal technicalities. And, unlike Russia, Israel is not a hostile state to the the UK, but seen as an ally. It's easy for you or I to say, as we do "yep. Israel has done atrocities, clear war crimes". For a (soon to be, likely) leader of an ally, and a lawyer to boot, to say to Israel "you done war crimes" is harder, politically. In politics world, national leaders and senior politicians tend not to be that black and white about allies' actions, because it ends up being what they'd call "unhelpful". By that I mean if a leader says "Yep, our ally, Israel has clearly done war crimes" they get asked next "are you going to work to ensure those responsible get taken to the International Court in the Hague?" to which the only answer would be "Yes". And then Israel (or whoever is the villain in any example) gets asked "The UK has stated that they will endeavour to take you to the Hague for war crimes, PM Netanyahu, what do you say in response?".. and you get an expression of sorrow or anger at the UK politician "stooping so low" and a withdrawal of passing intelligence from Mossad to the UK about Iranian plans to do [whatever] or info on terrorist threats to the UK not getting passed across. I have no sympathy with Netanhyahu at all, he's vile, but I kind of don't expect to see any main UK party leader, be that Sunak or Starmer, or whoever, to be so blunt as to say so, or to call him a war criminal (even though I think he clearly is). I do know that I’m asking an awful lot in the real world for a politician to have a moral compass. To paraphrase President Biden, pick a team. It’s all a lot simpler once you’ve picked a team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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