The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[chrisp65]

24 minutes ago, Chindie said:

It is the case that, if you are Jewish in the UK, you are much more likely to be of above average wealth. It's not anti-Semitic to acknowledge this.

Is there evidence of that?

I’d be interested to see it, I really don’t know many Jewish people. The few I do know appear to rely on their community to basically muddle through. But I do appreciate a sample of two people isn’t really going to be very representative.

 

[Follyfoot]

51 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Is there evidence of that?

I’d be interested to see it, I really don’t know many Jewish people. The few I do know appear to rely on their community to basically muddle through. But I do appreciate a sample of two people isn’t really going to be very representative.

 

There are many involved in the top end of financial services that I have met over the years who are very wealthy and they do tend to employ and promote their own to senior positions as a rule. Many have their own micro community's that keep themselves pretty much to themselves. Decent bunch in general 

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Is there evidence of that?

I’d be interested to see it, I really don’t know many Jewish people. The few I do know appear to rely on their community to basically muddle through. But I do appreciate a sample of two people isn’t really going to be very representative.

 

Stats from the ONS.

[chrisp65]

Cheers, never seen that before.

Might convert, I’ve already done the hard bit...

[AVFC_Hitz]

7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Might convert, I’ve already done the hard bit...

Sat through an Adam Sandler film?

[Chindie]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Is there evidence of that?

I’d be interested to see it, I really don’t know many Jewish people. The few I do know appear to rely on their community to basically muddle through. But I do appreciate a sample of two people isn’t really going to be very representative.

 

I don't know many Jewish people either - I've knowingly met 2. One was a rich Representative for Wellingborough, the other one of the best people I've met and of very average means.

But... It is the case that Jewish people are more likely to be well off than not in the UK today. Median wealth and income amongst Jews in the UK is considerably higher than the rest of the population (double iirc), as the stats linked show. It even gets reflected in daft stuff like the makeup of the Brit richlist - a few years ago a fifth of the British 100 richest people was Jewish, despite the British Jewish population making up far less than 1% of the overall population.

Obviously this is a controversial topic because of the historic slur of Jewish people as money grubbing (itself ironic as the historic view used to be that many Jews were beggars) but that doesn't undermine the fact that, in the UK, today, if you're Jewish you're more likely to be more well off than the average person. 

Of course this is also simplification as you also have other things in play - the extremely low number of Jewish people compared to other backgrounds makes outliers more likely, and the fact that Jewish communities are clustered in higher wealth areas compared to the average (notably London - owning a property in London immediately puts your affluence on a uneven keel and most of British Jewry is heavily focused in London of course - 1 in 5 British Jews lives in Barnet, for instance). But... That doesn't negate it's factual basis.

[magnkarl]

17 hours ago, Chindie said:

It is the case that, if you are Jewish in the UK, you are much more likely to be of above average wealth. It's not anti-Semitic to acknowledge this.

Source? Being Jewish myself I find this argument fascinating. Did you see a film with a couple of bankers named 'stein' in the end and assume that we're all bankers?

I'll take your two 'well off' Jewish friends and raise you my 3 Jewish friends who are living on the streets after serving in the military. Where do you draw the line between an age old AS trope and your 'facts'?

The fact that we have some extremely rich people in our group doesn't mean that the average being pulled up massively by the few makes the rest of us minted. It's the saga about the wall mural again, and it's very muddied waters to navigate. The issue with your source is that it's all median - we're very few people and 5 of us being billionaires pulls the average pay up by a massive amount. 

Edit:

Sorry @Chindie - didn't see your later posts! *flame off!

Edited August 25, 2020 by magnkarl

[Stevo985]

25 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Source? Being Jewish myself I find this argument fascinating. Did you see a film with a couple of bankers named 'stein' in the end and assume that we're all bankers?

I'll take your two 'well off' Jewish friends and raise you my 3 Jewish friends who are living on the streets after serving in the military. Where do you draw the line between an age old AS trope and your 'facts'?

The fact that we have some extremely rich people in our group doesn't mean that the average being pulled up massively by the few makes the rest of us minted. It's the saga about the wall mural again, and it's very muddied waters to navigate. The issue with your source is that it's all median - we're very few people and 5 of us being billionaires pulls the average pay up by a massive amount. 

The ONS statistics have already been posted as a source. 
 

I don’t understand why Chindie is being attacked for posting a statistical fact. You’ve even acknowledged yourself that it is a fact yet you seem to be taking issue with it.

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

The ONS statistics have already been posted as a source. 
 

I don’t understand why Chindie is being attacked for posting a statistical fact. You’ve even acknowledged yourself that it is a fact yet you seem to be taking issue with it.

I take issue with fairly clear tropes being excused with median statistics on income in a relatively small sample size. The fact that the now ex-leader of our second largest party is said to have used this to tune is moral compass is embarrassing. 

[cyrusr]

Just now, magnkarl said:

I take issue with fairly clear tropes being excused with median statistics on income in a relatively small sample size. The fact that the now ex-leader of our second largest party is said to have used this to tune is moral compass is embarrassing. 

To be fair to @Chindie, he acknowledged this very early on in response to the article @bickster put up. If it what the aide said is true as to views of Corbyn, it just re-emphasises the suggestion that he never really saw it as a problem, hence why it wasn’t getting dealt with. 

[magnkarl]

5 minutes ago, cyrusr said:

To be fair to @Chindie, he acknowledged this very early on in response to the article @bickster put up. If it what the aide said is true as to views of Corbyn, it just re-emphasises the suggestion that he never really saw it as a problem, hence why it wasn’t getting dealt with. 

Yeah sorry, didn't see the responses until later. This sort of argument gets me right in the gut after years and years of having to defend against it.

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

7 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I take issue with fairly clear tropes being excused with median statistics on income in a relatively small sample size. The fact that the now ex-leader of our second largest party is said to have used this to tune is moral compass is embarrassing. 

Just for the sake of clarity. The median is what the man in the middle of the group earns, not an average (or mean). Therefore, how much the top few billionaires earn is (largely) irrelevant.

[magnkarl]

Just now, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Just for the sake of clarity. The median is what the man in the middle of the group earns, not an average (or mean). Therefore, how much the top few billionaires earn is (largely) irrelevant.

Not really. When 5 out of a group of 250k people are billionaires, compared to for example 5 out of 83 million, the median is bound to be much much much higher. There's a clear weakness in using this stat.

[cyrusr]

3 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Yeah sorry, didn't see the responses until later. This sort of argument gets me right in the gut after years and years of having to defend against it.

No worries, understandable. Don’t forget we are a decent bunch on this board, so long as you stay out of on topic  

[Stevo985]

13 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I take issue with fairly clear tropes being excused with median statistics on income in a relatively small sample size. The fact that the now ex-leader of our second largest party is said to have used this to tune is moral compass is embarrassing. 

But he’s not excusing a trope as far as I can see. If he is then I agree with you. 
 

As far as I can tell he’s stating a fact whilst also saying it was something that should never have been said. 
 

I also agree about Corbyn, but that wasn’t my point. You accused Chindie of making sweeping generalisations based on seeing a film about a couple of rich Jews. I don’t think that’s fair when what he said is a statistical fact 

[Stevo985]

5 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Just for the sake of clarity. The median is what the man in the middle of the group earns, not an average (or mean). Therefore, how much the top few billionaires earn is (largely) irrelevant.

It is AN average 

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Not really. When 5 out of a group of 250k people are billionaires, compared to for example 5 out of 83 million, the median is bound to be much much much higher. There's a clear weakness in using this stat.

Not really. I think you're confusing Median and Mean
 

If you have 9 people and they all earn £10 an hour and the 10th person earns £1,000,000 an hour, the median is still 10

Edited August 25, 2020 by Stevo985

[cyrusr]

3 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Just for the sake of clarity. The median is what the man in the middle of the group earns, not an average (or mean). Therefore, how much the top few billionaires earn is (largely) irrelevant.

Your problem depends on whether it excludes the outliers or not. Having a smaller sample will always be prone to more statistical anomalies, which ever method you use. Median is likely to be more accurate than mean or mode but doesn’t mean it’s flawless. 

It is also doesn’t justify not doing something as Corbyn allegedly did, which I think everyone is agreeing on?!

[HanoiVillan]

2 hours ago, cyrusr said:

It is also doesn’t justify not doing something as Corbyn allegedly did, which I think everyone is agreeing on?!

Well, I think I'm not agreeing that you can divine what is in Corbyn's mind this way to be honest.

 

[cyrusr]

6 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Well, I think I'm not agreeing that you can divine what is in Corbyn's mind this way to be honest.

 

 

2 hours ago, cyrusr said:

Your problem depends on whether it excludes the outliers or not. Having a smaller sample will always be prone to more statistical anomalies, which ever method you use. Median is likely to be more accurate than mean or mode but doesn’t mean it’s flawless. 

It is also doesn’t justify not doing something as Corbyn allegedly did, which I think everyone is agreeing on?!

Ahem, way ahead of you