The 2015 General Election

[MakemineVanilla]

 

PMQs was hilarious today with the Tories setting a trap for Miliband on VAT and he jumping straight into it.

That's not how it came across to me, MMV.

 

Parties rarely if ever "reveal" a manifesto pledge in PMQs. They tend to reveal things occasionally under pressure (felt pressure due to currently being in a weakened percieved position). If they want to announce something, they tend to set up media thingies, and trail it in all the press.

 

To me it came across that the Tories felt the VAT thing was a potential weak spot, and so Cameron said it on the back of that - i.e. it was less a "trap" and more a rapid response to a weak position.

 

The overall level of it today was not quite as bad as last week, but not much better. Little/No attempt to answer any question, and just attempted point scoring, rather than any explanation or engagement. So, so poor.

 

 

I was just quoting the man from the Beeb, who said that Osborne had refused to tell some committee yesterday, whether he was going to increase VAT if the Tories got back in.

 

Miliband picked up on this and thought he could embarrass Cameron with his question but who replied with a very definite no.

 

Miliband refused to answer whether he would increase NI or not.

 

The man from the Beeb said it had been a trick.

[blandy]

Fair enough.

Thing is, based on that yesterday Gideon wouldn't say, then today Cameron said.

Today Milliband wouldn't say (about NI) and later Balls said.

 

It's not (IMO) traps, it's just indicative of politicians basically being called out on something hitherto unstated, then later "taking the opportunity to clarify" in political speak.

 

I wonder for example if some tory spin doctor might have had a word in the ear of the BBC man  "You know it was a clever trap" and so it got passed on in the report as such. It avoids any of that less flattering "Milliband forced the pm to make up something on the hoof" type reporting.

 

I only watch PMQs cus it's on the telly in the works canteen when I'm getting my dinner. I can't stand it.

[MakemineVanilla]

Fair enough.

Thing is, based on that yesterday Gideon wouldn't say, then today Cameron said.

Today Milliband wouldn't say (about NI) and later Balls said.

 

It's not (IMO) traps, it's just indicative of politicians basically being called out on something hitherto unstated, then later "taking the opportunity to clarify" in political speak.

 

I wonder for example if some tory spin doctor might have had a word in the ear of the BBC man  "You know it was a clever trap" and so it got passed on in the report as such. It avoids any of that less flattering "Milliband forced the pm to make up something on the hoof" type reporting.

 

I only watch PMQs cus it's on the telly in the works canteen when I'm getting my dinner. I can't stand it.

 

I would prefer it if Miliband refused to play these stupid games and treated the voters like adults and explain what they are choosing between, not assume every voter can be shifted by the promise of no tax rises.

 

As it was just pointed on Ch4 News, every newly-elected government have raised taxation as soon as they got into power, and it won't be any different this time around.

[HanoiVillan]

I literally don't know anyone who likes PMQ's. I can't really believe that anyone outside of SW1 enjoys it. 

[chrisp65]

It was a trap in that both parties with potential to be in power have now publicly promised not to raise VAT, income tax, PAYE, NI.

So having drastically limited their ways to raise money they can now either make cuts or increase the debt.

 

Win win for the right as the 'left' simply promise to copy them in their bid to be in power. Happy to be 'in charge' on someone else's agenda and terms. Pathetic.

[RichardCanning]

Didn't the tories promise not to raise VAT before the last election and the do it anyway. Empty promises mean that pretty much all politician's words are meaningless and carry no value and it is for that reason I will go to the ballot and spoil the paper. I would not vote at all but feel in doing so would feel guilty for wasting the lives of those who fought for us to have the right to vote.

[snowychap]

It was a trap in that both parties with potential to be in power have now publicly promised not to raise VAT, income tax, PAYE, NI.

So having drastically limited their ways to raise money they can now either make cuts or increase the debt.

They've only drastically reduced their options if one were to believe that a promise of any sort at any time carries any weight.

[chrisp65]

 

It was a trap in that both parties with potential to be in power have now publicly promised not to raise VAT, income tax, PAYE, NI.

So having drastically limited their ways to raise money they can now either make cuts or increase the debt.

They've only drastically reduced their options if one were to believe that a promise of any sort at any time carries any weight.

 

 

yes, you're right

 

I very briefly forgot who we were dealing with here

[Marka Ragnos]

A third of you are Greens? You must be the whole party. I thought Greens only had like on seat or something. Have they grown a lot?

 

A lot of conservatives but not very vocal here, unless I'm missing something.

 

Are you Conservative, MakeMineVanilla?

[tonyh29]

Didn't the tories promise not to raise VAT before the last election and the do it anyway. Empty promises mean that pretty much all politician's words are meaningless and carry no value and it is for that reason I will go to the ballot and spoil the paper. I would not vote at all but feel in doing so would feel guilty for wasting the lives of those who fought for us to have the right to vote.

They said " we have no plans to raise vat" so it wasn't really a broken promise , just that the plan changed

Fine line in politics

I think vat would have gone up regardless of who got in for what it's worth

[tonyh29]

A third of you are Greens? You must be the whole party. I thought Greens only had like on seat or something. Have they grown a lot?

A lot of conservatives but not very vocal here, unless I'm missing something.

Are you Conservative, MakeMineVanilla?

Labours move to the right hasn't really given the lefties a lot of choice I guess hence its green or move to Scotland ... Either way it will be like living in the 18th century

[Condimentalist]

 

A third of you are Greens? You must be the whole party. I thought Greens only had like on seat or something. Have they grown a lot?

A lot of conservatives but not very vocal here, unless I'm missing something.

Are you Conservative, MakeMineVanilla?

Labours move to the right hasn't really given the lefties a lot of choice I guess hence its green or move to Scotland ... Either way it will be like living in the 18th century

 

 

I think you'll find it's right wingers who want to return to an imagined past 

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Either way it will be like living in the 18th century

 

 

Down with Pitt.

[Marka Ragnos]

 

 

A third of you are Greens? You must be the whole party. I thought Greens only had like on seat or something. Have they grown a lot?

A lot of conservatives but not very vocal here, unless I'm missing something.

Are you Conservative, MakeMineVanilla?

Labours move to the right hasn't really given the lefties a lot of choice I guess hence its green or move to Scotland ... Either way it will be like living in the 18th century

 

 

I think you'll find it's right wingers who want to return to an imagined past 

 

 

I don't mind an imagined past, but theirs isn't very imaginative.

[bickster]

A third of you are Greens? You must be the whole party. I thought Greens only had like on seat or something. Have they grown a lot?

 

A lot of conservatives but not very vocal here, unless I'm missing something.

 

Are you Conservative, MakeMineVanilla?

(1) Theres a difference and a very big difference between being a green and voting for them at this election

(2) Most people on VT live in the Midlands or the North of the country, not exactly a hotbed of Tory support

[Marka Ragnos]

 

A third of you are Greens? You must be the whole party. I thought Greens only had like on seat or something. Have they grown a lot?

 

A lot of conservatives but not very vocal here, unless I'm missing something.

 

Are you Conservative, MakeMineVanilla?

(1) Theres a difference and a very big difference between being a green and voting for them at this election

(2) Most people on VT live in the Midlands or the North of the country, not exactly a hotbed of Tory support

 

 

Are you one of these voting greens then? Or the non-voting species? or something else?

 

Yes, familiar with electoral map and VT's largely white male middle-class largely uni-educated nerdists. But there are a good chunk of apparently quiet conservatives on this self-selecting poll.

[tonyh29]

A third of you are Greens? You must be the whole party. I thought Greens only had like on seat or something. Have they grown a lot?

A lot of conservatives but not very vocal here, unless I'm missing something.

Are you Conservative, MakeMineVanilla?

(1) Theres a difference and a very big difference between being a green and voting for them at this election

(2) Most people on VT live in the Midlands or the North of the country, not exactly a hotbed of Tory support

On point 1 ) Pedant put the poll of which plastics observations have originated from states " How will you vote at the General election "

On point 2) looking at election maps of current MP's I'd suggest the Midlands is Tory and as places like Cheshire , Humberside and even big chunks of Yorkshire are Tory possibly labours largest number of MP's is around the London area , which although the centre of the universe is also deemed to be South for the purpose of this exercise

[tonyh29]

Yes, familiar with electoral map and VT's largely white male middle-class largely uni-educated nerdists. But there are a good chunk of apparently quiet conservatives on this self-selecting poll.

I read this as un-educated the first time and thought well he's not been a member long but he's already sussed me out

Edited March 25, 2015 by tonyh29

[Marka Ragnos]

 

Yes, familiar with electoral map and VT's largely white male middle-class largely uni-educated nerdists. But there are a good chunk of apparently quiet conservatives on this self-selecting poll.

I read this as un-educated the first time and thought well he's not been a member long but he's already sussed me out

 

Well you guys get educated here if you're not already carrying the formal credentials, right? it's a bit of a hive from what I can observe, humbly.

 

But seriously, I am interested in this Green question. They seem way over-represented in the poll then in terms of what they would shake out as in a national poll:

 

 

Keeping up with the polls is tiring. Every day creates a new headline. Who’s up and who’s down? Our Poll of Polls keeps track of every poll being published by the UK’s major pollsters – and averages them over time, weighing them by everything from time to track record.

Our data includes nearly 4,500 polls, going all the way back to August 1970. Ted Heath was Prime Minister, the first email hadn't yet been sent and Butler and McKenzie were still manning BBC election nights.

 

Edited March 26, 2015 by Plastic Man

[Mantis]

The left tends to be over-represented on the internet compared to real life as well.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Mantis