Isa Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 On top of that, McLeish played hoofball to actually not lose a game, not by winning it hence the despair. You keep bringing McLeish into this argument, but lets not forget this is the same man who at the Emirates said we need to re-allign our ambitions here as we shouldn't expect to win there. Sorry to disappoint you SIT but this was a discussion about whether Lambert intends for the team to play as it does at times. McLeish wasn't mentioned as he isn't relevant to the tactics employed by his successor. Er…yes he was. Not by me he wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villabromsgrove Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 At the start of the season Guzan was rolling the ball out to our wing backs and we tried to pass the ball out in a controlled manner. Lambert obviously worked on that in training. Then when we started to struggle, Guzan was instructed to kick it long to try to find Bentekes head or chest. Lambert must have worked on that in training (on our full size replica pitch) What the team do on the pitch on match day has to be directed and led by the manager. Martinez or Rodgers would not stand for their carefully worked out tactics being ignored …. neither would Lambert. What we see on match days is down to what the manager and coaches have worked on in training that week. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 So a cross-field ball to switch the play is a long ball? Or does it only count 25 yards forward? If not then every time we pass from full back to the keeper there's a good chance that's going down as a long ball on the stats. Misleading much? Stats are largely useless and are a byproduct of Sky Sports' 24 hour newsreel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 17, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 17, 2014 On top of that, McLeish played hoofball to actually not lose a game, not by winning it hence the despair. You keep bringing McLeish into this argument, but lets not forget this is the same man who at the Emirates said we need to re-allign our ambitions here as we shouldn't expect to win there. Sorry to disappoint you SIT but this was a discussion about whether Lambert intends for the team to play as it does at times. McLeish wasn't mentioned as he isn't relevant to the tactics employed by his successor. Er…yes he was. Not by me he wasn't. Sorry, when you said McLeish wasn't mentioned I thought you meant that well McLeish wasn't mentioned. My mistake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I would take 10th before the start of this season. But still, i would say Southampton still are miles above us in terms of quality. Maybe it's because they spent as much on three players this season as we have on 16 over two seasons? Just a thought 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 The last two performances have been good and credit needs to go to lambert and the players. I think what has annoyed fans is that these performances seem to be an exception and not the norm. If we were performing like this on a more regular basis and the poor performances were more of an exception I think there would be very few complaints. If we were performing like this on a more regular basis we would be top six material which is patently ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Do we even need the stats to tell us that we have employed hoofing the ball to Benteke as our primary outlet an awful lot this season? You'd think that anybody who has watched most of our games wouldn't deny this. Onto the stats, the fact is that we average more long balls per game (71) then any other team in the league. Importantly this is coupled with the fact that we average the third lowest short passes per game (301) and the third lowest average possession share (43.5%). You can say what you want about what constitutes a long ball but the same criteria is applied to all the teams. If we aren't doing it more than anyone else, we wouldn't be top of the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 If you were enjoying the season before the previous 2 games then good for you. I wasn't. We averaged a point a game and were having a record low home form season. No surprise you're back now because before the last 2 games you had little evidence to back up your opinion. I'll see how the season ends, hopefully it continues like the last two games. I'm no more happy than you at the inconsistent form we are showing however I'm much more realistic in my expectations of what is achievable with a £40m squad and a slashed wage bill. Lambert took over an absolute and utter shambles and has conscientiously and diligently gone about improving us little by little.....sorry that we are not delivering the consistent high quality, sintilating performances that you obviously expect, but £40m doesn't buy that in modern football I can't be bothered to get sucked into the same debate with you over and over and over BJ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Stats can be hugely misleading I agree and stats have to be taken into context and thought about. When talking about how often we play long ball surely stats on long balls and short passes per game are relevant. Would you consider say Southampton to be a long ball team? I see where you're going as Southampton are 2nd in that list. But like I said this is why you need to think about the stats. Because while Southampton do indeed play a similar amount of long balls per game they also play 450 short passes a game compared to our 301. They also have 59% possession rate compared to our 44%. So while Southampton play a lot of long balls I think its fair to say they mix that in with different styles as opposed to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 If you were enjoying the season before the previous 2 games then good for you. I wasn't. We averaged a point a game and were having a record low home form season. No surprise you're back now because before the last 2 games you had little evidence to back up your opinion. I'll see how the season ends, hopefully it continues like the last two games. I'm no more happy than you at the inconsistent form we are showing however I'm much more realistic in my expectations of what is achievable with a £40m squad and a slashed wage bill. Lambert took over an absolute and utter shambles and has conscientiously and diligently gone about improving us little by little.....sorry that we are not delivering the consistent high quality, sintilating performances that you obviously expect, but £40m doesn't buy that in modern football I can't be bothered to get sucked into the same debate with you over and over and over BJ That's fine. You don't expect much and are pleased when on the rare good performance whereas I actually think we should play better more often. I think the final 3rd of last season and a few games this season show we can do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 17, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 17, 2014 I see where you're going as Southampton are 2nd in that list. But like I said this is why you need to think about the stats. Because while Southampton do indeed play a similar amount of long balls per game they also play 450 short passes a game compared to our 301. They also have 59% possession rate compared to our 44%. So while Southampton play a lot of long balls I think its fair to say they mix that in with different styles as opposed to us. Exactly Southampton are 2nd in that list, something which nobody wants to seem to mention so thanks for being willing to do so. And yes I agree with you that stats also need to be thought about. We are essentially a counter attacking outfit as I'm sure you would agree given that you reference the possession stats, therefore its fair to say our game is about having the ball less and playing at pace and with purpose on the break, it is therefore completely understandable that we have a lower number of short passes than some other teams because we don't want slow build up play. So yes we make more longer range passes than short, that though doesn't in my view make us a long ball team because we don't in my view just hit it long all the time and we don't hit zones of the pitch which is after all what long ball was originally all about. Would I prefer we played more possession football? Absolutely but I recognise that we haven't the players to do this consistently and we've seemingly not got the budget to buy them. We currently try to play a fast, counter attacking game which does require quick build up and not playing lots of short passes, I just don't think we are a long ball team whatever the stats say, just as Southampton aren't even though Southampton play a different way to we do. As you said, stats need to be looked at otherwise Bannan can be made out to be the best crosser of the ball since Beckham. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 17, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 17, 2014 I actually think we should play better more often. I think the final 3rd of last season and a few games this season show we can do better. I agree we should but the difference ultimately is that you seem to think the manager instructs them to play a different way in some games as with I just don't think we've got players that are either good enough or mature enough to produce a consistent level of performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) Do we even need the stats to tell us that we have employed hoofing the ball to Benteke as our primary outlet an awful lot this season? You'd think that anybody who has watched most of our games wouldn't deny this. Onto the stats, the fact is that we average more long balls per game (71) then any other team in the league. Importantly this is coupled with the fact that we average the third lowest short passes per game (301) and the third lowest average possession share (43.5%). You can say what you want about what constitutes a long ball but the same criteria is applied to all the teams. If we aren't doing it more than anyone else, we wouldn't be top of the list. But a long pass is 25 yards and by the look of things that could be in any direction so maybe what the stats actually demonstrate is that we pass our short passes further than all the other teams. It's about as credible as your assessment. Edited March 17, 2014 by bannedfromHandV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 If you were enjoying the season before the previous 2 games then good for you. I wasn't. We averaged a point a game and were having a record low home form season. No surprise you're back now because before the last 2 games you had little evidence to back up your opinion. I'll see how the season ends, hopefully it continues like the last two games. I'm no more happy than you at the inconsistent form we are showing however I'm much more realistic in my expectations of what is achievable with a £40m squad and a slashed wage bill. Lambert took over an absolute and utter shambles and has conscientiously and diligently gone about improving us little by little.....sorry that we are not delivering the consistent high quality, sintilating performances that you obviously expect, but £40m doesn't buy that in modern football I can't be bothered to get sucked into the same debate with you over and over and over BJ That's fine. You don't expect much and are pleased when on the rare good performance whereas I actually think we should play better more often. I think the final 3rd of last season and a few games this season show we can do better. This a nonsense argument - because we can beat the league leaders in a one-off game we should just replicate that form in every other game! Mid-table teams play mid-table football - you can't just take your best 10% of performances and roll that out 100% of the time. 10th - 12th place is a fair reflection of the level of investment at the moment - you think we should be playing better more often so where would have satisfied you as a finishing position at the start of the season? 7th? 5th? top 4? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 But a long pass is 25 yards and by the look of things that could be in any direction so maybe what the stats actually demonstrate is that we pass our short passes further than all the other teams. It's about as credible as your assessment. I'm sorry but I couldn't help but chuckle at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 17, 2014 Moderator Share Posted March 17, 2014 Mid-table teams play mid-table football - you can't just take your best 10% of performances and roll that out 100% of the time. 10th - 12th place is a fair reflection of the level of investment at the moment - you think we should be playing better more often so where would have satisfied you as a finishing position at the start of the season? 7th? 5th? top 4? A very fair point and one not too dissimilar to mine. You don't get consistency at our level of investment in the squad and with the sort of players we have. I actually think a finish of 10th-12th would be a very decent performance from Lambert with the resources he has had to work with and I don't think we could realistically hope for more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 On top of that, McLeish played hoofball to actually not lose a game, not by winning it hence the despair. You keep bringing McLeish into this argument, but lets not forget this is the same man who at the Emirates said we need to re-allign our ambitions here as we shouldn't expect to win there. Sorry to disappoint you SIT but this was a discussion about whether Lambert intends for the team to play as it does at times. McLeish wasn't mentioned as he isn't relevant to the tactics employed by his successor. Anyway lets just end this one, McLeish in his first season won 7 games out of 38. This season this hoofball manager has won 9 from 31. Firstly, you are the one who just butted into the conversation, so please don't tell me to 'end it' as if it were solely between me and you. Also, we are talking about style of play and set-up of the team, which is not automatically linked to results. Hahaha apologies, I quoted the wrong message haha, it was mean't for Big John10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaggy Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 If you were enjoying the season before the previous 2 games then good for you. I wasn't. We averaged a point a game and were having a record low home form season. No surprise you're back now because before the last 2 games you had little evidence to back up your opinion. I'll see how the season ends, hopefully it continues like the last two games. I'm no more happy than you at the inconsistent form we are showing however I'm much more realistic in my expectations of what is achievable with a £40m squad and a slashed wage bill. Lambert took over an absolute and utter shambles and has conscientiously and diligently gone about improving us little by little.....sorry that we are not delivering the consistent high quality, sintilating performances that you obviously expect, but £40m doesn't buy that in modern football I can't be bothered to get sucked into the same debate with you over and over and over BJ We don't have a 40 million squad unless you want to exclude Agbonlahor, Delph, Weimann, Baker, Clark and even Albrighton. With those players included our squad is worth a lot more than that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 The last two performances have been good and credit needs to go to lambert and the players. I think what has annoyed fans is that these performances seem to be an exception and not the norm. If we were performing like this on a more regular basis and the poor performances were more of an exception I think there would be very few complaints. If we were performing like this on a more regular basis we would be top six material which is patently ridiculous. No, If results and performances had been more consistent we would be top six. Take Chelsea away as an example, we didn't get the result but we performed well. However, there have been times when our performance has shown no signs of those qualities and infact have been depressing. For me we should be showing those performances more often especially against the lower teams, even if our results hadnt been that much different. I think tenth is about right for us at the moment but I would like to see more consistency in performances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 This long ball stuff, if you have someone as physical and direct as CB, then use what suits your team. Jose used the same tactic when he had Drogba. When Benteke is on form there is really no stopping him, yes we try getting the ball to him quickly, yes we counter, its his tactics and theres nothing wrong in it, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Take Arsenal yesterday, they were hoofing the ball all day long to Giroud to hold it and break, but they get credited for the spirited performance and defensive heroics, where had AW's passing philosphy gone yesterday? We are a work in progress side, we have many faults as in a plan B, retaining possession better but when our front 3 are on it, we are ruthless and we have scored some outstanding goals this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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