VillaAndLoyal

"I'm sorry guys as eloquently you put your cases i simply disagree. The money/accounts only became an issue AFTER we found out the players was not good enough. Had the players been good enough it is arguable that the wages/fee's would have been raised at all. Once it was established we bought in the main shite..... we then had to sell our best players to balance the books. sorry, that just how I see it." - TRO (sorry guys, it won't let me quote on this computer/browser) That is simply not right at all TRO. Every football club, bankrolled by its owner and investors, has to live within its means. I guess one of the problems when Lerner came in and started splashing vast amounts of money about is we didn't really know how wealthy he was or what his long-term strategy was. It was new, it was exciting, and most people were drawn in by it. I can admit that. But this has absolutely nothing to do with the players bought not being good enough. As I've said before, our first team under Martin O'Neill was actually a good one and one that achieved a moderate amount of success on the pitch in both the league and cups. The money/accounts became an issue from the very start when Lerner decided to get rid of the football people at this club and instead bring in a former credit card manager and other non-football people (Krulak) to the Board. There was never any long-term strategy - and the funds HE let O'Neill spend were totally unsustainable. They would have still been unsustainable even if we'd have finished in the Champions League places when we had the chance. To shift that wage to income ratio to a sustainable amount would have taken years of sustained progress on the pitch (regular Champions League qualification & progress in the competition) as well as far better expansion off the pitch. It was never realistic and it was never the move of a responsible businessman with a plan. Whether you thought the players bought were largely not good enough is completely besides the point. The maths didn't stack up, and wouldn't have even if we'd have reached the Champions League for one season, and this is down to Randolph Lerner. The biggest gripe anyone can have with Martin O'Neill is the timing he left the club, which was questionable at best, but that is a separate argument. You cannot blame him for being the manager at a club which decided to just chuck and waste money in the hope we would somehow permanently break the 'top four'. It was naive, it was foolish, and it was a decision made by wealthy men who have never run a football club before. I don't think I can put it any clearer.

"MON spunking money on rubbish players was absolutely ruinous. We can talk about other things after but the thread asks what started the rot." Yes, and Martin O'Neill "spunking money" was NOT what started the rot. If it wasn't O'Neill, it would have been another manager because of the management structure (or lack of) and financial plan we had in place. I am just perplexed how people can't see this?

Spot on Trent. Darren Bent, our star striker, even recently admitted that Weimann was the best finisher we had at this club. That compliment came from a player who has prided himself on an impressive goalscoring record throughout his career - he knows a good striker when he see's one. And yet still people say ND has more talent than him? Very odd indeed...

Shove it up the arse of Phil Dowd?

Look, I'm as pessimistic as the next Villa fan. We're absolutely dreadful at the moment and look nailed on certs for the drop playing like this - I can't see where the next win is coming from either. But, saying that, as hopeless as it may appear, if we all say things like "I've already given up", "I've already accepted relegation" etc then we may as well all pack up and go home now, yeah!? Momentum and confidence should not be underestimated in football - they are, in my opinion, the two most important factors. Another really important thing to take into account in football is 'turning-points'. For me, the Chelsea game has (so far) been the turning point in our season. Up until then, we were struggling but playing fairly decent in some games and even picking up the odd impressive win (Liverpool & Norwich). Since the Chelsea mauling, we've just looked like a side bereft of any confidence and certainly any momentum. We've been stopped in our tracks and the players barely look like they've played the game before since that confidence-sapping defeat. That's where we are now. But, why can't we use a crucial derby game like Albion on Saturday as a positive springboard and another turning point in our season? An unexpected win there - which is possible given their poor form and injured players - could literally prove massive. It could bring back that confidence and help us build up some much-needed momentum as we have none at present. We've got former players like Carew saying they would play for the club for free to get us out of this mess and others like Laursen also declaring his love for the club and wishing he could lace up his boots again. These former players seem up for the fight! Yes, things are grim. But it's not over yet and if we're going to be relegated, let's go down fighting and at least give ourselves every chance by backing the Villa 100% and believing that we can get out of this mess. After all, we've done it before!! (No, I'm not Winston Churchill)

I'm glad I proved you to be Mystic Meg then Richard.

You guys don't have to believe it but my mum's half-cousin's brother's son knew a long-lost relative of Paul Lambert and he seemed to think Mr Lambert lost his cool recently and frowned at the players collectively during a practice session at Bodymoor Heath. It has apparently really put the players backs up to the point that Bannan will now only practice corner-taking if Hercules the Lion tells him to and Delph won't come to training without a parent or guardian. Like I say, just what I've been told.

What a legend! If he doesn't eventually end up back at Villa in a coaching or managerial role I will be massively surprised. When you think of it, we have lots of former players who would still die for the club. Only today John Carew said he would play for us for free if it meant keeping us up. Juan Pablo Angel, Ian Taylor, Dion Dublin, Paul Merson (among others) are all former players-turned-fans who bleed Claret & Blue like the rest of us. With people like these still behind the club, anything is possible! Massive week for the Villa, a season-defining week perhaps, so let's not let Martin Laursen down!

"Pride of the Midlands" ha ha ha ha! Good one...

The Rose Villa Tavern in the Jewellery Quarter is good before Albion and packed full of Villa. The Royal Oak is the other one I'd consider. As already said, a lot of pre-match banter between the two sets of fans. It's really bizarre having Villa and Albion in the same pub before a derby, with no divides either. You could never do that for the Second City derby.

"Better than Weimann"... ha ha oh deary me! I'd rather have a Weimann with his legs blown off in the team than Nathan Delfouneso!

VillansRus just gave me a good laugh! Either he's been inhaling laughing gas or he's General Krulak in disguise...

Yeah that announcer was a complete wind-up merchant. I've only ever heard another like him, and that was the old announcer at Swansea's Vetch Field. As annoying as it is for the opposition, it does help gee up the home crowd!

Never heard of the guy. Can't be any worse than Delph or Bannan though.

Whereas playing Bennett, Stevens and Lihaj at left-back has worked, hasn't it!? Oh wait...

One of my mates went to that pre-season Asia tournament the other summer and Phil Dowd was there in the bar with them. He was apparently really sound and held his hands up and said he made a big mistake re: the Vidic incident at Wembley. It's reassuring to know he knows when he's made a mistake, unlike Halsey for example, but even so he could be the nicest guy in the world, Phil Dowd is still an unbelievably crap referee. Amazing how he's never been demoted on the back of some of his decisions.

Cheers for the comments guys. I was pretty annoyed/frustrated at first but now I'm trying to stay philosophical about it. I had started to hit a bit of a plateau before my illness so this gives me the chance to work myself back up again and do a few things differently when I start to reach the weights I was hitting before. Happy training! Actually, sod happy, go hard and controlled!

It says something doesn't it that I'm really, really pleased that Dunney is back in the fold!? He will bring a much-needed experienced head to the backline and his mere presence could act as a calming influence to the nervous youngsters currently being asked to safeguard our Premier League status. In reality, Richard Dunne is not getting any younger and up against the best strikers in this league may well prove too slow now he's come back from a long-term injury. But, as explained above, his mere inclusion 'could' do psychological wonders to our team. Or maybe I'm just clutching at straws...

Erm, no it's not 'literally impossible' at all. I was in the east stand last Tuesday night and watched a team from three divisions below completely and utterly run rings and tear apart our supposed 'Premier League' full-back at every given opportunity. It was a performance so bad that prompted him to apologise to the fans. It was a performance that made me think back to when I once covered a teammate to play in this position in my Sunday League team and was, naturally, all at sea. It was an embarrassing performance. If you think Enda Stevens has performed as badly in any games this season I suggest you watch the matches back again.

Jacob and Mulumbu are not playing Ash. But no doubt their replacements will still dominate us in the middle...

Bennett's performance against League Two Bradford City was far, far worse than Enda Stevens' performance against Southampton. Nothing Bennett has done so far, starting from when he came on away at Southampton, has led me to believe he will ever become an established Premier League player. He can't tackle, he dives in, his turn of pace is too slow for a full-back, he shows a lack of intelligence in his play, his positioning is awful, he is far too weak, and generally I cannot see anything in him sadly to be positive about. I know several Boro fans who say the replacement they bought for Bennett is far better and they can't quite believe we paid them money to have him. I tend to agree with them at the moment.

I think Reading will go down and Wigan could also be dragged back into it with the loss of their best defender. For me, our survival relies on keeping ahead of QPR. I think Newcastle will turn it around and Southampton have a good enough record against the bottom clubs to see them safe.

Thanks AvfcRigo82. No, what I'm suggesting is not interference TRO, it's basic football management structure. Interference would be someone telling O'Neill that player A is crap, or that he should go for player B. But if O'Neill wraps up talks with a squad player like Sidwell, for example, and then asks for the board to approve his wage demands of say 50k a week, then the club could and should have turned round and said to him: "Look you can have the player, but not on those wage demands." That is not interfering - that is the basic, simple, logical way to run your finances. But no-one ever told O'Neill 'no' - they can't have - judging by the absolutely farcical fees and wages paid for players. There was no plan from the start - and THAT'S why we're now paying for it - you can't blame it on the manager as every single manager in the world signs crap players for inflated fees. The problem is we seemingly had no safeguards in place, because of the lack of the knowledge on the Villa board, and we placed far too great a trust on one average manager, which eventually royally **** us over. Again, that's not O'Neill's fault, he was given money and he spent it. By the time Lerner realised what a royal ****-up it was, he panicked, and rained in spending far too quickly which affected us on the pitch. Then a succession of bad (I'm being kind) managerial choices has just inflamed this situation, leading to the steep decline we've seen, but have no doubt that the mess started AT THE START.

I'm in need of some serious reassurance and motivation guys! Trained solidly, 4 times a week (on average), for more than 18 months and was making some really great gains both in terms of size and strength. Then on December 22 I got glandular fever and an inflamed liver, out of nowhere, which was finally diagnosed on January 7 and ever since then I've been signed off from work watching my muscles slowly deflate and my strength waste away, literally. Weight wise I've gone from 15" 4 to 14" 1 and I'm only now starting to get my appetite back! I don't think I could lift a feather duster at the moment (okay, slight exaggeration). It has been a totally depressing time after all the hard work put in but I'm just hoping 'muscle memory' really does work when i can get back in the gym!

Nobody mentioned the word 'perfect' but you tell me what Lerner's plan is? As he's gone from chucking stupid sums of money on, largely, dross to cutting right back - yet - still occasionally splashing out big if we get in trouble (Bent). This is not a decisive strategy, this is clearly a man who is acting as he goes along and one which does not understand the workings of football. You mentioned Kenwright but he has stuck to a cautious financial strategy and also stuck by a manager despite some tricky periods. That has created stability which Everton have largely benefited from. Now compare that to Lerner - everything Lerner has done, bar the training ground improvements, have created more instability within this football club. How can you seriously say that none of Lerner's faults (and there are plenty) have resulted in the current downward spiral? What nonsense and the evidence suggests otherwise. Martin O'Neill was given lots of money and with some of that he spent wisely which made us a stronger team on the pitch, but he also spent it much of it on utter dross and if Lerner had some football men on board within the management structure we'd have never sanctioned the crazy wages we did for players who were not even bought for the first-team. That is a failure on Lerner's part. If the safeguards are not in place, as a manager you will naturally pay as much as it takes to get that player to the club. I'm not saying it is right, and O'Neill was of course partly to blame, but the stem of the problem again comes from the owner who is meant to be overseeing the fortunes of this club. Would Daniel Levy have sanctioned O'Neill's requests? He'd have been told to whistle in the wind.