VillaAndLoyal

I'd agree that his performances since he was dropped after Man City away have lacked the right amount of effort, but before that when he had a run in the team he was tracking back, tackling, and completely disproving this popular theory that he doesn't put in the right commitment. He was still being far too inconsistent too, of course, but he was also playing very well in some games such as Newcastle away when he bossed the game and we should have won. We all know he's a 'difficult' footballer who is probably a challenge to manage for anyone but why on earth would you be happier seeing him out of the team in our current situation? We are drowning with a bunch of kids who are not good enough, we need experience, we need quality (and Stephen does have that) and we need creativity in that midfield. Holman for the first part of the season offered unbelievable effort and it was enough to win him a fair few MOTM's on here. But even his effort, in recent weeks, has been lacking and a few people have commented on this. So a Holman without effort is, well, less than useless. And that's before you get me on to players like Bannan and Delph who are just not PL quality. There is no good reason for Stephen Ireland not to be playing at the moment. An off-form SI is better than a lot of the players being picked ahead of him at present.

Well, what a constructive comment... Anyone can pluck a random game out of thin air and say a player performed poorly. Doesn't really prove anything, does it? You still haven't given me a reason as to why a proven pro at this level is being picked behind shite youngsters who are clearly not Premier League quality.

MikeMcKenna - I actually shouted 'yes' at the end of your fantastic post! Finally, finally, someone else has said what I've thought and said on here all along. This 'mess' didn't start at a particular point during Lerner's reign. It started when he first stepped foot inside this club - a man of (fair - for a football owner) wealth who won us over with a quick influx of cash, because he wasn't Deadly Doug, because he seemed to embrace our history and because, initially at least, things started to go right on the pitch. But, as Mike so brilliantly put, the short-term success on the pitch was just blinding most of us from the complete shambles unfolding off it. Lerner is not a football man, neither is former credit-card manager Mr Faulkner and never during his reign have we had football men making or helping to make the important decisions. And now it has shown to have catastrophic consequences. None of us will probably ever know Lerner's thinking or 'plan' when he first came here but only a fool would think that chucking bucket loads of money into achieving a Champions League finish in a particular season was a good way to go. Even if we had have reached that fourth spot under O'Neill, would we be in a different position now? It's very, very unlikely. Just ask Everton, who managed to 'break' the top four one season and has it made a jot of difference to them? No, only finishing consistently in the Champions League places would ever achieve the financial reward that comes with it and help break that elite group so Lerner's approach was never, ever going to work. Yes, O'Neill spent ridiculous money on transfer fees and wages but who signed off the deals? To suggest O'Neill had sole control of the finances is ludicrous. His spending, under Lerner's & Co's guidance, was unsustainable and totally out of control. Our wage bill was higher than that of Spurs despite them having a far bigger and better squad. It was only ever going to end this way and when people talk about "what stage during Lerner's tenure did it go wrong" all I can do is laugh because it was those first two seasons that proved the most disastrous, not when Martin walked out, or Houllier came in etc. The events which have proceeded the events under O'Neill have equally been a disaster, with managerial appointments ranging from the peculiar (Houllier) to the downright illogical (McLeish) and high prices splashed out in panic when things seem to be slipping away (£20 million+ for Darren Bent). You can have the best manager in the world but every football club should have a proper management structure in place and a clear, strategic, and realistic long-term goal. Therefore it's so ironic that the American owner who preached to the fans his slogan of 'Proud History, Bright Future' has actually never had a proper plan from the outset, and failed to appoint, or keep, the football men which could have guided him. What is this bright future we were all promised Randolph and how did you actually plan to get there? Going by everything he's done thus far, it's not hard to believe that this is a man who inherited most of his wealth and simply wanted a new plaything to focus on after things at Cleveland Browns also turned sour. I'm delighted other people can also see this as, still, so many Villa fans seem to think this is still somehow the fault of Martin O'Neill or Alex McLeish. In fact, anyone, bar the main 'silent' culprit who has turned this club into an absolute mess. The day our fans turn en mass against the owner will not come a day too soon for me although I do fear it will come a day too late, sadly.

Liam, did you participate in the 8th minute applause Albion fans dedicated to a recent Villa defeat? And, regardless, do you not believe it to be one of the most small-time things any club has done since, well, ever? Genuinely interested to hear a Smethwick take on it.

I haven't a clue what the score will be and quite frankly i'm dreading the game. But, make no mistake, an unlikely win in this game (coupled with some signings) could (and I use that term loosely) kick-start our season and prove to be a massive turning point. A loss would intensify this free-falling we've been doing a lot of lately.

Why, in nine pages of reactions, has only two people mentioned the criminal fact that Stephen Ireland, again, played no part in this game. For example, why on earth, when we already had three strikers on the pitch, did he bring on another in Jordan Bowery ahead of Ireland? Lambert has clearly fallen out with him but the fact he's letting it cloud his judgement shows to me that Paul will never make it as a top manager and it fills me with very little faith he will steer us to safety. When you are in a mess like we are, and when you are desperate for quality in midfield, and when you are severely lacking in experience, there is not one single reason for keeping Stephen Ireland on that bench argument or not. Even an off-form Stephen Ireland would be better than some of the shit youngsters we keep persisting with in midfield. He doesn't seem to realise that you can have as many forwards on the pitch as you like (4 in this case) but if you haven't got anybody to create then what hope do you have? I'm shocked so many people have failed to mention this because, for me, it's a big point to raise and leaves Lambert with serious questions to answer. Whether you like Ireland or not, he has still had some good games for us this season, and to suddenly drop him after Man City away (when he was one of our better players) is just diabolical from Paul. How can I look at him as anything other than a poor man's Martin O'Neill when he makes decisions such as this. I agree with someone who said 'back him' or sack him' - although I'd far rather he was backed. The simple truth, watching that game in the freezing cold, is we are going down if nothing changes and no players come in. The quality simply isn't there now. Southampton played awful, and defended a 1-0 lead for most of the game - why? - because they knew they could. We are too easy to play against, no passion, no fight, no confidence and no ideas on or off the pitch I'm afraid to say. I fear this is Lerner's shambolic tenure coming to a head.

CarrieBlue, that may well have been true for some of the night, but it does not excuse his performance for me. He was diving in, making stupid passes, and generally not doing the things an intelligent defender would. I can remember one instance right towards the end, which summed up his night. He was one of two Villa players right near the byline close to the Villa fans trying to get the ball off the Bradford player and they both still managed to let him by, creating another good opening for the home side. This happened all night, when he had support and when he didn't. Far too weak a player in my opinion from what I've seen so far.

Villa Park staying quiet for the first two minutes, that shouldn't be hard, we usually manage 90 + stoppage time...

It is wrong to abuse him and quite frankly achieves nothing. It is moronic, plain and simple. In terms of Bennett though, I've been massively disappointed with him since his debut at Southampton away and see little to suggest he will turn it around anytime soon. When you're getting skinned all night by players from a League Two club you know something is wrong. I once filled in to play left-back (I was a striker) and my performance then reminded me of Bennett's against Bradford. He looked like a fish out of water. He's far too lightweight, doesn't seem to have a quick burst of pace (quite crucial for a full-back), doesn't track players, dives in all the time and either misses the tackle or commits a stupid foul and just generally looks way out of his depth playing in a Premier League team. That's just my assessment of him so far and I know others who share that opinion. However, it is Lambert who keeps picking him so abusing the player is not fair on any level. Direct your anger at Lambert for keeping him on the field.

I think someone on the last page mentioned the word 'desperate' and I think that sums up the current state of this rivalry. I have never come across another club who are so desperate for another club to hate them back and, sadly, because of the state of the Villa on the pitch at the moment some of our younger supporters are (naturally, I guess) beginning to bite. But looking at the rivalry on the whole, it is very one-sided and certainly not a patch on the Second City derby. Between Villa and Blues (whether you like it or not) there is genuine hatred, on both sides, and I don't mind admitting that despite our superiority over them for practically our entire history. We share the same city and I can't stand them or anything about their grotty club. But with Albion they are so obsessed with us - they so want to reignite the rivalry of old - and I guess that is borne out of a club based in a place where it is difficult to have an identity. Are they in Birmingham? Are they in the Black Country? Is Wolves their biggest rivalry? Even their own fans don't know the answers to these questions so we are hardly likely to. Make no mistake though, their fans hate us with a passion. But it's more a jealous hate whereas Blues' fans are just, mainly, barbaric animals. And to be fair, as other have said, some of our fans are only too happy to reciprocate, They (Albion) literally never stop singing about us, and that 8th minute applause is honestly the most small-time thing I've ever seen from any club. To think WBA's media department thought tweeting that was in any way sensible, productive, balanced, or professional is, well, just scary. I'd not be wanting to highlight or promote anything as downright petty as that but I guess that is the mentality which runs right the way through that club. Albion, of course, are not the only other Midlands club (other than Blues) to sing about us as Coventry still do to this day. In fact, at a match with Shrewsbury Town last month their loudest chant heard by the away fans was 'SOTV' - so make of that what you will. What it comes down to is that Aston Villa have, for a long time, been by and away the West Midlands most successful club. That is down partly to our own success but also the failure of our local rivals collectively. It is natural, now that we seem to be on a decline of sorts, for the other teams to revel in our apparent demise and I guess they have every right to. I don't like Albion at all, and I think this 'friendly club' tag is getting a bit old now. I'd describe them as a bitter club, full of bitter individuals, and come the game later this month I will treat it as a full-blown derby game. But, in reality, I don't hate them and Albion will always play second fiddle for myself and many other Villa fans in the derby stakes. Reading that last sentence, I realise, will anger many Tesco shirt-wearers but it's the truth.

No Hev, my comment wasn't directed at you, hence why I didn't name anyone in particular. Loads of fans have said similar over the past few weeks, particularly after the Chelsea game, and like I say, there is no logic in the comment whatsoever. I understand, and share, this almost unbearable time to be a Villa fan. Just when you think things can't get any worse, they do, and usually in front of the watching nation. But no fan of any football club should ever be calling for people to get refunds over a single performance - the ticket was bought free and willingly and if you feel that cheated don't go again. Although I wouldn't suggest acting upon that, as we need as many fans as possible at this moment in time. On another note, I'm extremely interested to know what tactics Bradford will employ at Villa Park. Do they park the bus knowing we need goals and also struggle to break teams down? Or do they play as open as in the first leg knowing we can't defend for toffee? It's certainly a nice dilemma for the Bradford manager to have, that's for sure. Not sure which one I would prefer.

The atmosphere from our fans was electric last night and I'd love to know the above posters other Villa away games he's been to which have been better? Radio Five live even commented last night about how it was one of the best cup atmosphere's they had ever been present at, so I'm shocked to hear a Villa fan stood in the same stand as me say we were quiet? As for any fans calling for refunds again blah blah blah, give your heads a wobble! Last night was disgraceful, I am fuming about it, but no-one forced you to go. Any football fan stupid enough to ask for a refund just because the result didn't go their way should probably go back to watching football on television. Last time I looked, it didn't say in the small print on the back of my ticket that payment was on the proviso of a positive result and a measure of effort from the players? Some people need to get real. There's enough things to moan about with this current team already, without people making silly comments like that after every woeful result/performance.

Erm, AvfcRigo82, "There is a reason why Lambert is going to be one of the top managers in this league and now whilst in the thick of it is not the time to drive him out." - what is that reason and where is the evidence to suggest as such? Just wondering.

Just got back. I've backed Paul Lambert from the start but my patience has been worn to a thread after that utterly disgraceful performance tonight. The only reason I'm not vocally calling for his head is because 1.) I can't think of who on earth would take on this god awful mess, 2.) I think he deserves a January transfer window and 3.) I do believe chopping and changing managers is bad for the club. But, let's be honest, so far Lambert looks clueless in terms of tactics, he bewilderingly leaves out better players game after game (Ireland & Bent), he doesn't seem to be able to change a game, he doesn't seem like he can motivate the players, his post-match interviews are quite frankly cringe-worthy (sometimes, Paul, it is better to say it as it is), he keeps breaking all these god awful 'records', we've conceded the most goals in the PL, we've scored the fewest, and overall I'm just majorly concerned that this policy of buying 'just youth' has backfired spectacularly... For the first 10/15 minutes we played well but Benteke in particular missed some great chances and then as soon as they scored we just collapsed, AGAIN, apart from this was against a League Two side in the semi-final of the cup. For me, the two fundamental things that are wrong is the whole of our defence (which is not PL quality) and the centre of our midfield. Delph and Bannan were both playing like defensive midfielders in that first half, both passing sideways and there was always a huge gap between them and our front players - that gap is MIDFIELD where they should have been. Andi Wiemann got so frustrated with this that he started drifting deep, picking up the ball and looking for a positive pass and move forwards, but he can't do it all himself. Bannan and Delph would struggle to form a partnership in the Championship - they are not Premier League standard players. Simple as that. Our defence is just god awful. Nervous, out-of-position, in fact just about everything that could be wrong, is. Joe Bennett should be nowhere near a PL team - he's worse than Warnock and that is something I never thought I would say. The number of times he jumped in tonight like Bambi and was left for dead was just embarrassing. It reminded me of when I once played left-back and hadn't a clue what I was supposed to do playing there. Lowton, especially in the first-half, had an absolute nightmare of a game. Time after time he would lose the ball and Bradford would set off down his flank. I've been hopeful that a lot of these youngsters will come good but, after seeing them up against a team 3 divisions below, that myth (if it ever was one) has been blown clean out of the water. A lot of them are just not good enough and, as most of them are around 20-23, they never will be. One more thing, it was crucial tonight we got at least a draw to take back to Villa Park. Why on earth did Lambert start with 3/4 attackers on the pitch? Was he a bit too disrespectful to Bradford's attacking talent? He just seems to make wild errors of judgement for me and, yes we had chances, but so did they too. This was not just a case of us not being able to finish, they hit the bar and could have easily had another 4 themselves. That, against Bradford City, is not acceptable. Fans were rightly going apeshit at the final whistle and then you still had idiots like Bennett clapping us for a good 60 seconds, almost as if to wind us up further. I've never seen a player clap for that long after a win, let alone after you embarrassed yourself against lower league opposition in a really big game. Sometimes it is far more dignified to leave the field with your head bowed. You had nothing to clap about son, learn to play football.

Buzzing for this, what a draw! Villa will take thousands down to South Bermondsey, regardless of the allocation. Looking forward to drinking around the London Bridge area! Not sure why so many people are soiling their knickers over it - too many hours watching sensationalist DVDs me thinks...

I've been behind Lambert from the off this season and for weeks have defended him against fans who are all too quick to call for protests etc and spit their dummy out of the pram. I am still of the belief that we have to finally, for the first time in years, build stability at this club instead of chopping and changing as soon as times get tough. I'll re-assess my viewpoint in perhaps February/March time once the players recruited during the January transfer window have bedded in but, I must admit, I'm running out of things to defend Lambert with I really am. For me, the past three defeats lay firmly at the door of Lambert. And yet, I've just been told that Lambert made the squad train on Christmas Day whilst he still went off to see his family. Hardly a way to inspire your young team? And hardly a level playing field that, is it? I believe we started this stupid 5-3-2/3-5-2 formation at Norwich away and, because of a couple of wins, it papered over some very large cracks which have now transpired in epic proportions. When Norwich went 1-0 up we had been extremely open at the back and if it wasn't for Holman's very quick reply, I think it could have been a very different game. I wasn't comfortable with it then, despite the good eventual win, and i'm sure as hell not comfortable with it now. Equally, the stats just do not lie. We've scored the least and conceded the most in the Premier League - any team which can 'boast' that horrible stat is in serious, serious trouble. But probably the most worrying thing for me with PL is his uncanny resemblance to Martin O'Neill in almost every decision he makes, question he answers or situation he goes about. I actually like his pro-youth policy but it is clear we need some experienced quality to go with that - but is he too stubborn to admit it was too many youngsters too soon? Which is what he would be doing if he goes and buys experience in January. Likewise, is he too stubborn to scrap this stupid formation? I'm not so sure that he is. A lot of you have been very stinging over Stephen Ireland today and, rightly so after a very poor performance. But some of you are also forgetting that this was his first start in SEVEN weeks - why? Why was he dropped after Man City away when he was arguably our best player? Whether you like him or not, he is one of our best midfielders and to be picking players like Delph and El Ahmadi over him for weeks is just ludicrous in every sense, particularly when we desperately need experience. It is perhaps not surprising Ireland had such a poor game when he is suddenly thrust into this crisis-hit team after weeks on the sidelines. Have Lambert and Ireland had a bust-up, possibly over Darren Bent? Seems a possibility to me, especially when Lambert seems stubborn to the core like Martin O'Neill. The way he speaks in the press also irritates me. For me, he comes across as very defensive, but almost lethargic in front of the camera. Is he a leader and can he inspire our team to fight back? I'm not convinced, particularly when I hear stories about Christmas Day training mentioned earlier. The thing that has definitely bought him time, in my opinion, is our great cup run and more importantly his signings to date. Benteke, Westwood and Lowton have all been really good and I'd like to think it shows the great potential of a manager when they can pick out gems like this for such low prices. Granted, some of the signings have been poor, but every single manager in the world makes bad purchases. I can write all this on here but I think it's really important that, when it comes to matchday, we all remain positive. The one thing which is really hurting our team at the moment is confidence - as there isn't any - so if the fans start to turn big time too, then we may as well pack up now and go home. Whether you've liked Lambert or not from the start, let me put on record how truly impressed I've been with Villa fans' patience so far this season, when we have witnessed some utter dross. When you've conceded 15 goals without reply in 3 games it's easier said than done I know, but we HAVE to support the team, more now than ever, with the youngsters playing before us! UTV! Keep the faith!

Where to start? Terrible, terrible performance and I hope I never see that again in my lifetime. I think Lambert got the tactics badly wrong today - we should have packed the midfield and given the defence some protection but for most of the game Chelsea had acres of space to play in between our defence and midfield and also down the channels. Although we won at Anfield, the same problems today were present then, the difference was Chelsea were extremely clinical and, to be frank, a class above Liverpool at present. Lambert also made the wrong substitutions today and how Bannan stayed on I will never know. The third fatal thing he did wrong was not to order our players to just shut up shop at 4 or 5 nil. So all in all, shocking day in our history and we collectively need to learn from it. It was a similar collapse at Southampton. BUT, all that said, some of the overreactions and comments from our fans are just totally embarrassing on every level, much like our team's performance. I have witnessed today supposed 'fans' of ours on Twitter calling for Lambert to go and verbally attacking people who can still see the bigger picture. It is not a crime to like to stay positive and retain faith in our manager. Generally speaking, over the past couple of months our level of performance has been getting better even if we are still massively inconsistent. Back in October/start of November i'd have predicted we would be rock bottom come 2013 but we have picked up the points to make sure that won't happen. Our defence and midfield still needs strengthening in January, but I have no worries about relegation despite drubbings like today. Finally, why on earth should our fans receive refunds after that? They didn't buy tickets on condition of a certain scoreline. No-one forced them to go and some people need to get a grip... It is not the end of the world (that was on Friday)

MOTM: Our fans. Imagine (approx.) 3,300 Villa fans bouncing up and down, clapping, waving scarves, some with tops off, and singing at the top of our voices. That was us last night and we've had universal praise from Norwich fans, our players/manager and the media for what was truly incredible support last night. I was proud to be a part of it. We suffer a fair amount of dross at Villa, particularly in recent years, but night's like this remind me why so much of my disposable income is spent on the Villa. There is absolutely no reason why we can't get to Wembley now and, like most people, would really love to draw Bradford. It would be another cracking away day! Andi Weimann is possibly my favourite player and he will grow into a really quality striker for us. Darren Bent once said Andi was the best finisher at the club and I really concur with that statement from what I've seen of him so far. His first goal last night, and our winner, was a truly sublime finish - something a young Michael Owen or Alan Shearer would have been proud of as the ball actually came slightly behind him. Benteke's assist for Andi's second was just as good - how many strikers at the age of 21 would have the intelligence to pull that ball back instead of shooting from a tight angle? Little things like that tell me that Christian is also going to be a really, really good player eventually. Given looked very shaky last night, even though he did pull off one top class save, and our defence looked less than assured all night. Was that because of a more lightweight midfield in front of the defence? Maybe so. But for today, at least, I'm just buzzing to be in the semi-finals and hopefully we can take this confidence with us to Liverpool.

Darren doesn't seem to be the type of player to stay quiet if he's being treated unfairly so maybe there is something in the rumour that he's already signed a deal with someone else or has been promised a move away in Jan? If that is the case, then you can understand the present situation I guess. But it's still another messy episode with a star player that we could do without. I can't see us getting much for him either. Liverpool would be my guess.

Great post Pongo. Agree entirely. A good few weeks ago I could have easily seen us rock bottom at New Year and that would have been hard to come back from. But in the past month or so, since the Norwich game, we have gradually seen consistent performances being put together even if the points weren't always coming in. On Tuesday we also showed that, when needed, we can grind out a result and adapt our pretty football to a more direct approach. This all gives me hope because I'm confident we will invest in January. It's really important, imo, to get at least 3 more points from the next two games. If we do, we could well surprise a few people against Liverpool and/or Chelsea - and then our season suddenly looks a lot better. We're still in a precarious position but we're also a small run away from mid-table so these could be a big few weeks for AVFC but i'm feeling far more optimistic now, than say 6 weeks ago.

Care to expand dont_do_it_doug?

For me, there is no logical reason whatsoever as to why Jordan Bowery would be picked ahead of Darren Bent. None at all. So even though we don't know the full details about the reason for Bent's snub, I think I am safe in saying that Lambert has not dealt with this situation well at all. And it's a shame, because I backed his original decision to drop Darren.

I'm not saying it will necessarily 'do anyone good' but it might do less damage, for the reasons already mentioned, to the club than keeping this saga ongoing until January throughout a busy and crucial Christmas period. Why did you only quote part of my post? I take it you think Paul Lambert has handled this situation well then?

Preparing to launch a raid on Bale & Defoe in January? I can dream...

Fair enough if you don't rate him as much but to make such sweeping judgments on him when he's clearly still settling into his first Premier League season is a little harsh if you ask me.