Voinjama Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 I think the Scotland team seemed to decline in the late 90s, possibly 1998 which was the last tournament they qualified for, the foreign invasion of English football started after Euro 96, so I guess that is a possible explanation. They have a few good moments though, Euro 2008 qualifiers they came 3rd in a group with France and Italy, winners and runners up of the previous world cup at the time. I thought they would kick on from there but they seemed to go back to being shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 I don't see anyone here saying it has to be either one or the other, but he truly is an awful manager in England. There's a reason why virtually every Villa fan in existence wanted him gone at the end of the season before last and why the vast majority of fans didn't want him here in the first place. His career since he left Villa also supports the fact that he's a very poor manager. I think this is just a case of people's opinions towards him softening as time has gone on. He can be not good enough for Aston Villa without being a 'truly awful manager'. He was a pretty decent manager in England historically, above average at the very least. I would call an average English manager someone like Russell Slade at Leyton Orient or Gary Johnson at Yeovil Town. Managers like those guys would love to be as successful as McLeish in their career. I'm not just basing it on his performance at Villa - he really is an awful manager and has been everywhere he's been in England. Comparisons with lower league managers are pointless as it's impossible to say how they would perform at bigger clubs and vice versa. Managers aren't the same as players. Just because some shitty manager like McLeish has been floating around Premier League/Championship English clubs for a few years doesn't mean he'd do well in the lower leagues. Not just floating around. Also winning a promotion to the premier league a top 10 finish and a league cup. That's more than those managers will ever dream of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 I think the Scotland team seemed to decline in the late 90s, possibly 1998 which was the last tournament they qualified for, the foreign invasion of English football started after Euro 96, so I guess that is a possible explanation. They have a few good moments though, Euro 2008 qualifiers they came 3rd in a group with France and Italy, winners and runners up of the previous world cup at the time. I thought they would kick on from there but they seemed to go back to being shite. Bad managerial appointments really, Levein was hopeless and while I've always thought of George Burley as a decent manager in the English leagues, he was out of his depth at Scotland and fell out with the likes of Kris Boyd and Barry Ferguson and the momentum was lost. Yeah they still had a good side in the mid 90s, just look at the midfielders they had....Gary McAlister, Stuart McCall, John Collins, Lambert, Craig Burley, some really good players there. Craig Brown didn't really inject youth in that period, he just stuck to the old guard and they started missing out on tournaments. I'll say it again, McLeish's negative philosophy is ideal for international football where many games are won on tight defences and set piece goals. I really don't think it would be a bad move (apart from a hit on his salary) for him to go back and do that job again. Certainly you're talking about someone who beat the Ukraine and France away when he was in charge and one win away from taking Scotland to euro 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 (edited) Not just floating around. Also winning a promotion to the premier league a top 10 finish and a league cup. That's more than those managers will ever dream of. Also relegated twice and almost relegated again with Villa. Is known for being one of the most defensive managers around and serves up some of the worst football (if you can call it that) imaginable. It's silly to say that that's more than lower league managers can dream of when most lower league managers don't even get the chance to test themselves at that level. If McLeish is such a good manager (or not that bad at least) then one wonders why everyone on here wanted him gone? Edited July 30, 2013 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Not just floating around. Also winning a promotion to the premier league a top 10 finish and a league cup. That's more than those managers will ever dream of. Also relegated twice and almost relegated again with Villa. Is known for being one of the most defensive managers around and serves up some of the worst football (if you can call it that) imaginable. It's silly to say that that's more than lower league managers can dream of when most lower league managers don't even get the chance to test themselves at that level. If McLeish is such a good manager (or not that bad at least) then one wonders why everyone on here wanted him gone? They don't get the chance at that level because they had never been as successful as McLeish in their smaller leagues as McLiesh was in his (Scotland). You need to prove yourself at the smaller clubs before getting a crack at the big time and those managers can't even manage that (if you will excurse the pun). Like I said, you can be a not good enough for Aston Villa, with everyone wanting you gone, without being as bad as most of the managers working in the game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviramsey Posted July 31, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted July 31, 2013 Using "not good enough for Villa" as evidence of how poor a manager is says quite a lot about what one thinks the Villa's station (for want of a better term) is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Using "not good enough for Villa" as evidence of how poor a manager is says quite a lot about what one thinks the Villa's station (for want of a better term) is... Actually if you'll look at my post I gave his performances at SHA and Forest, not just Villa, as evidence that he's a poor manager. There are other factors as well - the dreadful negative football, the sheer lack of wins and goals scored, and he wasn't just "not good enough" for Villa - he was one of our worst managers ever. They don't get the chance at that level because they had never been as successful as McLeish in their smaller leagues as McLiesh was in his (Scotland). You need to prove yourself at the smaller clubs before getting a crack at the big time and those managers can't even manage that (if you will excurse the pun). Like I said, you can be a not good enough for Aston Villa, with everyone wanting you gone, without being as bad as most of the managers working in the game. Most of McLeish's "success" came with an Old Firm club. And as I said, it's not just about Villa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 you do know he was a success at Motherwell and Hibs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 you do know he was a success at Motherwell and Hibs Less successful at the now defunct Rangers (1872 - 2012). Managed to finish 3rd one season in a 2 team league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 you do know he was a success at Motherwell and Hibs Less successful at the now defunct Rangers (1872 - 2012). Managed to finish 3rd one season in a 2 team league he also finished 2nd with motherwell in the 2 team league Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 31, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted July 31, 2013 I go back to my previous point. At the TOP LEVEL, which doesn't include Scotland, he was crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviramsey Posted July 31, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted July 31, 2013 Using "not good enough for Villa" as evidence of how poor a manager is says quite a lot about what one thinks the Villa's station (for want of a better term) is... Actually if you'll look at my post I gave his performances at SHA and Forest, not just Villa, as evidence that he's a poor manager. There are other factors as well - the dreadful negative football, the sheer lack of wins and goals scored, and he wasn't just "not good enough" for Villa - he was one of our worst managers ever.Forest and sha are evidence enough of McLeish's poorness. That such a manager is not good enough for Villa is thus self-evident (except to the brain trust at the time...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Using "not good enough for Villa" as evidence of how poor a manager is says quite a lot about what one thinks the Villa's station (for want of a better term) is... Actually if you'll look at my post I gave his performances at SHA and Forest, not just Villa, as evidence that he's a poor manager. There are other factors as well - the dreadful negative football, the sheer lack of wins and goals scored, and he wasn't just "not good enough" for Villa - he was one of our worst managers ever. Forest and sha are evidence enough of McLeish's poorness. That such a manager is not good enough for Villa is thus self-evident (except to the brain trust at the time...) And...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Yeah I wouldn't use the SPL as an argument to whether a manager is good or not, Terry Butcher was hopeless as a manager in England and now he's doing well with Inverness. The point I'm making is that he was very good as Scotland manager, I believe they won 5 of the 7 competitive games he managed them for including th France away win. Think his only two competitive defeats were home and away to Italy who'd won the world cup the previous year. So not sure even Mantis can spin that one against him. Really McLeish should take an international job somewhere as you can get away with negative tactics as we see with the Republic of Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Spin? I'm not trying to spin anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Cool man. He's a decent international manager and probably should go back to managing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted August 1, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted August 1, 2013 (edited) I don't think 10 games is enough to conclude that he's a"decent international manager" regardless of his record. He obviously got Scotland playing well enough to beat the teams in heir group at that time, but it's only really the France result they had that is really impressive. All their other victories were teams like Lithuania and Georgia and the Faroes. He deserves credit for beating those teams, you can only play what's in front of you. BUt 10 games is quite a small sample size to conclude he's good as an international manager. Edited August 1, 2013 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 In the 2011/2012 season there were 7 managers born in Glasgow in the Premiership. Fergie, Moyes, Daglish, Coyle, McLeish, Kean and Lambert. So 6 managers then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I don't think 10 games is enough to conclude that he's a"decent international manager" regardless of his record. He obviously got Scotland playing well enough to beat the teams in heir group at that time, but it's only really the France result they had that is really impressive. All their other victories were Lithuania and Georgia. He deserves credit for beating those teams, you can only play what's in front of you. BUt 10 games is quite a small sample size to conclude he's good as an international manager. I agree. I don't think he'd do that well if he were to manage an international team for a longer period of time. Obviously you can't play fancy football with poorer teams (teams like Scotland) but you still have to have tactical nous and motivational skills and he has neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I don't think 10 games is enough to conclude that he's a"decent international manager" regardless of his record. He obviously got Scotland playing well enough to beat the teams in heir group at that time, but it's only really the France result they had that is really impressive. All their other victories were teams like Lithuania and Georgia and the Faroes. He deserves credit for beating those teams, you can only play what's in front of you. BUt 10 games is quite a small sample size to conclude he's good as an international manager. He beat Ukraine aswell 3-1 at home who'd reached the world cup quarters the year before. I agree it's a small sample but it pisses all over Craig Levein and George Burley who followed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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