Mantis Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Do we think that Ron Saunders and Tony Barton were flukey?I am not about to defend McLeish's tenure at the Villa, other than the fact that he had a hell of a lot more respect for Aston Villa than either of his two predecessors, but the stats speak for themselves. He won a trophy when most others didn't (and haven't) Ask Everton fans whether they are pissed off about losing their manager to be replaced by a relegated manager. They are salivating at the thought of trading off half a dozen league placings in exchange for a League Cup or F.A. Cup win. And I think that Lambert is equipped to emulate McLeish's achievement in English football by delivering us a trophy, but 'streets ahead'? Not yet. Once again this is an example of how stats can be very misleading. Just compare Moyes to McLeish. Moyes didn't win a single trophy whereas McLeish did, but Moyes is unquestionably the better manager. The Martinez comparison isn't really a good one either, because he's already proven himself to be a better manager in England than McLeish has. I'm not saying Lambert's a great manager (although I do think he could bring relative success to Villa) but he is clearly the better manager. His achievements at Norwich far surpass McLeish's at SHA, and I don't think anyone would try and claim that he did a better job at Villa than Lambert's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 The Martinez comparison isn't really a good one either, because he's already proven himself to be a better manager in England than McLeish has. this I be interested to hear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 30, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted July 30, 2013 McLeish was good in Scotland. But in England, you know, a major league, he was nothing short of awful. I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise, League Cup or no League Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Well it is all relative isn't it? He was still more successful than 90% of the managers in leagues one and two and probably boasts a better CV than a lot of the managers in the Championship for that matter, let alone all the non league managers who will only ever dream of having the career in management he has had. It depends on who you are measuring against. I would say he was another example of a successful Scottish manager when compared with the hundreds of English managers in the lower leagues. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 The Martinez comparison isn't really a good one either, because he's already proven himself to be a better manager in England than McLeish has. this I be interested to hear? Only got relegated with Wigan once and won a cup. Also doesn't play dreadful ultra-defensive hoofball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 The Martinez comparison isn't really a good one either, because he's already proven himself to be a better manager in England than McLeish has. this I be interested to hear? Only got relegated with Wigan once and won a cup. Also doesn't play dreadful ultra-defensive hoofball. btw McLeish took over Birmingham when in relegation zone so find it hard to blame him for 1st relegation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted July 30, 2013 Moderator Share Posted July 30, 2013 I'm a bit (OK a lot) late to this thread but I think part of the answer with regards to poorer players is to do with the introduction of the Barclays Premier League. I think an argument can be made for the deterioration of the Scottish national team coinciding with the Premier League. Traditionally, the 'home' nations benefitted from being the first port of call for English clubs to sign talented players. Those players got to advance their game at the higher standard. Foreigners in the English top flight up to that point; while not necessarily being 'rare'; were certainly nothing like the percentage we have now. But with the new moneys that came in, not only did clubs start to look further afield for their players, but those foreign players from abroad who traditionally wouldn't have looked at England because of things like language and weather, now decided to overlook those things because of money. I also think the world becoming smaller (internet etc) in that English became a more commonly spoken 2nd language to foreign players played a part. As a consequence, the better players in Scotland who would previously have ended up in the Premier League either stayed in Scotland or went to a lower level in England. It's the same basic logic that has happened to the peripheral English youngsters. Their opportunities were/are limited by the influx of foreign talent. Yes the cream will rise to the top, but the supporting cast which would make up the rest of a Scottish or a Northern Irish side and which would have gotten their chance to develop at the higher level previously, don't get the development that they would have got in the 80s. EDIT : Misspelling the word 'languange'. Typical. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 30, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted July 30, 2013 Well it is all relative isn't it? He was still more successful than 90% of the managers in leagues one and two and probably boasts a better CV than a lot of the managers in the Championship for that matter, let alone all the non league managers who will only ever dream of having the career in management he has had. It depends on who you are measuring against. I would say he was another example of a successful Scottish manager when compared with the hundreds of English managers in the lower leagues. I'm measuring him against other Premier League managers. The top level. And he doesn't measure up. He did well in Scotland and did well to bring Birmingham back to the Premier League. but neither of those are the top level. In the Premier League he was awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 they did finish 8th under him. am sure was one of their highest ever finishes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 30, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted July 30, 2013 Relegation, 9th, Relegation, 16th Whether 9th is their highest finish or not, it's hardly an impressive record is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 30, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted July 30, 2013 I actually can't believe I'm having this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 It is impressive for sha. He was not good enough for us but to write off his whole career is daft. But, as is always the case these days, something is either brilliant or awful, there is no middle ground. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 It is impressive for sha. He was not good enough for us but to write off his whole career is daft. But, as is always the case these days, something is either brilliant or awful, there is no middle ground. this is more what i meant. he just put it better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 30, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted July 30, 2013 But nobody's writing off his whole career. All I'm saying is at the top level, he's been shit. Even in guiding SHA to their best ever finish of 9th, their fans hated him. He's been impressive in Scotland and did fine in the Championship. But at the top level, he's failed. Consistently. One season of scraping into the top half with SHA doesn't change that for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 their is some people in this thread writing his career off though plus their fans are idiots . Why hate a guy that brought you only your 2nd trophy in history of the club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 30, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted July 30, 2013 No-one's written off his time in Scotland which is the only impressive part of his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS-T Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Tbf he finished 9th with Blues which was their highest finish for around 50 years and he also won their first trophy in nearly 50 years and qualified them for Europe for the first time in about 50 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 btw McLeish took over Birmingham when in relegation zone so find it hard to blame him for 1st relegation. He took over in November and I believe they did exit the zone at certain points. He's not entirely to blame for that relegation but he definitely has to shoulder a fair amount of blame for it. I don't really see what's so funny? Tbf he finished 9th with Blues which was their highest finish for around 50 years and he also won their first trophy in nearly 50 years and qualified them for Europe for the first time in about 50 years. Which just goes to show how statistics can be misleading. It is impressive for sha. He was not good enough for us but to write off his whole career is daft. But, as is always the case these days, something is either brilliant or awful, there is no middle ground. I don't see anyone here saying it has to be either one or the other, but he truly is an awful manager in England. There's a reason why virtually every Villa fan in existence wanted him gone at the end of the season before last and why the vast majority of fans didn't want him here in the first place. His career since he left Villa also supports the fact that he's a very poor manager. I think this is just a case of people's opinions towards him softening as time has gone on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 I don't see anyone here saying it has to be either one or the other, but he truly is an awful manager in England. There's a reason why virtually every Villa fan in existence wanted him gone at the end of the season before last and why the vast majority of fans didn't want him here in the first place. His career since he left Villa also supports the fact that he's a very poor manager. I think this is just a case of people's opinions towards him softening as time has gone on. He can be not good enough for Aston Villa without being a 'truly awful manager'. He was a pretty decent manager in England historically, above average at the very least. I would call an average English manager someone like Russell Slade at Leyton Orient or Gary Johnson at Yeovil Town. Managers like those guys would love to be as successful as McLeish in their career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 I don't see anyone here saying it has to be either one or the other, but he truly is an awful manager in England. There's a reason why virtually every Villa fan in existence wanted him gone at the end of the season before last and why the vast majority of fans didn't want him here in the first place. His career since he left Villa also supports the fact that he's a very poor manager. I think this is just a case of people's opinions towards him softening as time has gone on. He can be not good enough for Aston Villa without being a 'truly awful manager'. He was a pretty decent manager in England historically, above average at the very least. I would call an average English manager someone like Russell Slade at Leyton Orient or Gary Johnson at Yeovil Town. Managers like those guys would love to be as successful as McLeish in their career. I'm not just basing it on his performance at Villa - he really is an awful manager and has been everywhere he's been in England. Comparisons with lower league managers are pointless as it's impossible to say how they would perform at bigger clubs and vice versa. Managers aren't the same as players. Just because some shitty manager like McLeish has been floating around Premier League/Championship English clubs for a few years doesn't mean he'd do well in the lower leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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