PussEKatt Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Thing is people like to try and say that the manager of three or four years ago is to blame for our current state because he wildly overpaid on wages in some sort of reckless abandon. When n actual fact what we actually saw was a team performing about to the level at which they were being remunerated , what a strange concept. That is we got what we paid for. What is to blame for our current situation is that our owner was not prepared to even sustain that level of spending for that level of performance. That is not he fault of Marin O'neill. What that is is an uncomfortable truth for a lot of people it seems I agree 110% What people are not considering now is that Lerner ( and Lambert with his transfer policy ) are trying to have a PL team on Championship wages and transfer spending. It`s not going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Well was still more than Spurs and Everton at time who finished over us According to those figures, Spurs actually spent more than us in 07/08 and came lower, spent less (10th highest) in 08/09 and came, er..., 10th (lower again), and spent less in 09/10 and ended above us. So I don't think you can claim they did consistently better than us. The important thing for Spurs is they have been going in the right direction and they outperformed us again in 2010-11, possibly linked to the fact that they went on spending - 6th highest wages in that season, while ours started to fall back. I'm not sure you could replicate the Spurs approach to things - it seems to have been a fairly barmy rollercoaster ride involving frequent switching of managers, selling of players, buying them back again, having a massive playing staff with many out on loan, etc. But they do seem to have found the secret of success just now and I suspect Levy has more of a clue about where he's going than our Mr Lerner. You are right about Everton, of course and the reason I didn't mention them is because they don't show up in those figures, Over the same period, they spent 11th, 12th and 10th highest on wages and came 5th, 5th and 8th in the league. I think we've discussed many times in this and other threads how well Kenwright and Moyes have done as a partnership over the past 10 years and I think I mentioned a few of the success factors in a recent post - a smart chairman with a clear idea of how to get the best out of his money; a smart manager who knows how to scout and buy hidden talent, a good partnership and shared vision of where the club is heading. Simple then, we just need to copy that and we will do as well. Unfortunately, as the figures I posted above suggest, it is a rare thing to get such a good partnership and most ambitious clubs haven't managed anything like it except perhaps in short bursts. It was rumoured strongly in the wake of MON's departure that Moyes was a candidate for the Villa job but (if it was ever a realistic prospect) it didn't happen for reasons that aren't clear, although there are a few theories. If we did have a real chance of getting him, but flunked it, that is really the worst thing Lerner has done to the club amongst a growing list of bad things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Well he is here for tomorrows game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 The bottom line, for me, is that we had a handful of players contributing to this '6th highest wage bill' that weren't contributing AT ALL to the team. Beye, Davies, L Young, Sidwell, Harewood, NRC and, at times, Carew were all on decent wages but were either not good enough or not liked by the manager. I think you'd be pushed to find another team in the league that had so many players, on decent contracts, that were seemingly not wanted by our manager or any other in the Premier League. Facts like these wont be accepted by some though. They are still trying to push through some strange absolution of any "blame" for MON, I suppose much in the same way they see that the current manager as having no cause for the current shite state we find ourselves in. Again it's agenda's to fit in with long held views rather than looking at how things have evolved at AVFC and have changed as things have progressed. Heaven forbid that they may have been wrong, that wont help anything will it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vandaq Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Well he is here for tomorrows game. really? why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 No idea why, but it doesn't hold good that he's here he's come previously to a must win game against Bolton last season and we all remember that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJT123 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Lerner at training today http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~3110042,00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 The bottom line, for me, is that we had a handful of players contributing to this '6th highest wage bill' that weren't contributing AT ALL to the team. Beye, Davies, L Young, Sidwell, Harewood, NRC and, at times, Carew were all on decent wages but were either not good enough or not liked by the manager. I think you'd be pushed to find another team in the league that had so many players, on decent contracts, that were seemingly not wanted by our manager or any other in the Premier League. Facts like these wont be accepted by some though. They are still trying to push through some strange absolution of any "blame" for MON, I suppose much in the same way they see that the current manager as having no cause for the current shite state we find ourselves in. Again it's agenda's to fit in with long held views rather than looking at how things have evolved at AVFC and have changed as things have progressed. Heaven forbid that they may have been wrong, that wont help anything will it? The daft thing is, I was pro-MON, I was pro-Houllier, I was even pro-McLeish (and willing to give him a chance, much longer than most) and I'm pro-Lambert. I'm just positive (and consistent!) So from my side, there's no agenda that people should be mentioning. (I realise you're not saying I have an agenda! Just saying..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 The bottom line, for me, is that we had a handful of players contributing to this '6th highest wage bill' that weren't contributing AT ALL to the team. Beye, Davies, L Young, Sidwell, Harewood, NRC and, at times, Carew were all on decent wages but were either not good enough or not liked by the manager. I think you'd be pushed to find another team in the league that had so many players, on decent contracts, that were seemingly not wanted by our manager or any other in the Premier League. There's a big difference between not "contributing AT ALL to the team"; and being "not good enough" in your opinion, or the opinion of the manager (although the latter obviously counts for more). If you look back at the playing records, I think you'll find that many of the players you mention above played quite a lot of games, so in what sense did they not contribute "AT ALL to the team"? If you didn't think they were any good - that's an entirely different matter - and obviously in a perfectly ideal world no manager would ever buy any player who turned out not to fit into the team well or that some fans didn't rate. Sadly, I don't think that happens at any club. As for finding a club with lots of player seemingly not wanted by the manager, a glance across at Spurs shows they have a squad of 37 players, with another 12 on loan. That's a massive playing staff of 49. This season, only 15 players have started more than 10 league games for Spurs and only 7 have started more than 20. So it seems as if the manager there has a lot of players in his squad who he doesn't fancy. Is this really supposed to be the most damning fact against our squad that got 6th place 3 times in a row - that a handful of players didn't spark in the team and were not consistently played in the first team? That seems a bit harsh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 You can talk about 6th however the transfer outlay with wages was to compete with top-4 which he did not do. We all hate DOL but if we look at the facts, MON did not have a higher league position than DOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 So MoN spends money to get a club where they should be for the money spent and he's to blame for current problems? I notice those that continue this ridiculous blame seem to ignore the large amounts of money we've pissed away over the last two years which have absolutely nothing to do with Mon. Funny that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 If you didn't think they were any good - that's an entirely different matter That's exactly what it comes down to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 No MON is a symptom of the problem, the board are the major contributors to our downfall. We were left with a high wagebill for really average, who we couldn't shift. All I say is bless our lucky stars that we had the likes of Downing/Milner/Young because if we didn't have any sell-on value we would be in financial meltdown. This all constitutes not having a football man on the board to counter-act and challenge some of the wages we were giving to players. Habib Beye on 42k a week says it all, when we already had Young and Cuellar who played there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Well, I'd like to hear anyone claiming that Beye contributed to our three 6th finishes. Or Shorey. Or the former spuds player who now plays for Swansea, though he probably wasn't on any high wages to speak of. And a few more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 So MoN spends money to get a club where they should be for the money spent and he's to blame for current problems? I don't know who you're arguing with BJ10, but it's not me. I'm simply debating the 'fact' that we had the 6th highest wage bill and the 6th best squad. I haven't mentioned anything about current problems. Funny that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 MON left us in such a financial mess that after he left we were able to sign Hutton, Nzogbia, Ireland, bent and given all on long term big money deals. Someone explain how that works then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Well, I'd like to hear anyone claiming that Beye contributed to our three 6th finishes. Or Shorey. Or the former spuds player who now plays for Swansea, though he probably wasn't on any high wages to speak of. And a few more. Do you think every man city player in thier squad contributed to their league victory? Do you think every spurs player in their squad is contributing to this season? This ridiculous judgment on certain areas is laughable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob182 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 If you didn't think they were any good - that's an entirely different matter That's exactly what it comes down to. It really doesn't. I rated Davies. I always thought he was a quality player when played next to a good leader like Laurson. I rated Luke Young. I still think he's the best right-back we've had for years. I didn't rate Beye. I rated NRC when played in a holding role with no other responsiblity at all. It's got nothing to do with whether I think the players are good enough or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SikhInTrinity Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 You really want us to answer that, You mention Ireland, who left in his place, Milner, so his wages went there. Then for Bent, we let go of Shorey/Sidwell/Carew/Beye to fund Bent and Makoun wages and we still had spare for Walker which says what stupid wages they were on. Hutton was a replacement for Young, N'Zog was a replacement for Young and Downing, So I don't know what point your actually trying to make. The wages were considerably reduced even by bringing these players in. Well, I'd like to hear anyone claiming that Beye contributed to our three 6th finishes. Or Shorey. Or the former spuds player who now plays for Swansea, though he probably wasn't on any high wages to speak of. And a few more. Do you think every man city player in thier squad contributed to their league victory? Do you think every spurs player in their squad is contributing to this season? This ridiculous judgment on certain areas is laughable. Theres a difference, Man City are owned by Billionnaires. Spurs wages to income is sustainable, what MON left us on wasn't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Well, I'd like to hear anyone claiming that Beye contributed to our three 6th finishes. Or Shorey. Or the former spuds player who now plays for Swansea, though he probably wasn't on any high wages to speak of. And a few more. Do you think every man city player in thier squad contributed to their league victory? Do you think every spurs player in their squad is contributing to this season? This ridiculous judgment on certain areas is laughable. so do you think it was OK for Beye or Heskey to be on the salary they were on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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