Relegation

[Morpheus]

Since Lambert has revamped the system i have always thought that we'd be ok by the skin of our teeth. We will score goals and when your in a relegation battle that is of paramount importance. What i can't get my head around is that we still haven't improved defensively. Is that down to a lack of quality, a lack of experience or not bringing in a better defensive coach to try and cut out the silly errors?

 

I have been debating in another thread on the merits of better coaching improving performance and while i don't agree that better coaching will make a good player into a world class player as i believe there is an ability threshold to consider, i do believe that with a better defensive coach our defence as a whole would improve positionally and have better concentration levels.

 

The lack of experience argument is valid but our defensive players have now had more than three quarters of a season to get used to one another and should be tighter as a unit and have the nous not to do what Baker did yesterday.

 

You can also put it down to a lack of quality but both Vlaar and Clark are now international centre backs so we should be better than we currently are.

 

I watched MOTD last night and the point was put forward that when the opposing team have the ball, as a collective, we are not good enough defensively including our forwards.

 

Maybe that is something Lambert and his coaching staff should consider?

Edited April 1, 2013 by Morpheus

[markavfc40]

He didn't have to build a new defense? really? Cuellar was out of contract, Collins was sold and both I dare say to get their 25k - 35k a week wages off the wage bill. Warnock had in the main been poor for a couple of seasons, Hutton was a liability and both Warnock and Hutton are clearly earning wages the club aren't willing to foot so have no medium to long term future here anyway.

I often agree with a lot of what you say and know I've shared your opinion on many things over the last few years. But I just can't agree with this.

If he had a decent budget then I would say yes, he should have purchased a new defence. But with his limited budget it's not been a success. You may tell me that Vlaar and Lowton have been ok but our defensive record has been abysmal this year. Absolutely abysmal. We are well on course to concede over 60 league goals. When was the last season that happened? I don't think there's a single bit of evidence to suggest a defence of Hutton Collins Clark Warnock would have done any worse this year.

He built this defence and its been shocking. It's been record breaking shit. That can't be excused.

 

I agree a defense  of Hutton Collins Clark and Warnock would arguably have not done any worse although for me I'd at the very least say Lowton is a better full back than Hutton and Vlaar is arguably a better centre back than Collins.

 

The bottom line in all this though is wages. By selling Collins who I'd imagine was on around 35k - 40k a week that would have funded the wages of Lowton and Westwood who will not be on anymore than 10k a week and Vlaar who I'd imagine is on no more than 20k a week. As for Hutton and Warnock they were given chances in pre season and Lambert didn't fancy them but I dare say their combined 70-80k a week wages would have also influenced Lamberts decision to deem them surplus to requirements. They clearly had no medium to long term future at the club.

 

The simple facts are that Lambert inherited a squad of players that had just clung on to its Prem league status by the skin of its teeth. That squad had already lost Cuellar and Heskey and needed major changes to have any chance of staying up. That job in itself would have been difficult enough but you throw into the mix having to also reduce the wage bill whilst over hauling a squad that had proved itself to be not good enough then the job becomes an almost impossible one.

 

With the above in mind I think in terms of signings he has done well with his net spend of 17 mill. As mentioned earlier by losing Collins wages it funded the signings of Vlaar, Westwood and Lowton. The wages of Cuellar I'd imagine would have funded the wages of Bennett, Benteke and El Ahmadi. Now you can argue that El Ahmadi and Bennett have been poor and I'd agree with that, although I still think Bennett will come good, but you have to consider when shopping in the bargain basement you are always likely to sign the odd dud.

 

Overall I would say that since the end of last season with Heskey, Cuellar, Collins completely off the wage bill and Warnock and Hutton having a portion of their wages being paid the club have taken around 170k a week in wages off the bill and I'd confidently predict all of Lamberts signing will be on no more than 120k combined. No manager in his right mind chooses to slash a clubs wage bill and have to sign players totally unproven at this level. That was the hand that Lambert was dealt though. If under those circumstances Lambert then manages to keep us up then he will have done a remarkable job and despite yesterdays defeat I still believe he will achieve that.

Edited April 1, 2013 by markavfc40

[danceoftheshamen]

 

He didn't have to build a new defense? really? Cuellar was out of contract, Collins was sold and both I dare say to get their 25k - 35k a week wages off the wage bill. Warnock had in the main been poor for a couple of seasons, Hutton was a liability and both Warnock and Hutton are clearly earning wages the club aren't willing to foot so have no medium to long term future here anyway.

I often agree with a lot of what you say and know I've shared your opinion on many things over the last few years. But I just can't agree with this.

If he had a decent budget then I would say yes, he should have purchased a new defence. But with his limited budget it's not been a success. You may tell me that Vlaar and Lowton have been ok but our defensive record has been abysmal this year. Absolutely abysmal. We are well on course to concede over 60 league goals. When was the last season that happened? I don't think there's a single bit of evidence to suggest a defence of Hutton Collins Clark Warnock would have done any worse this year.

He built this defence and its been shocking. It's been record breaking shit. That can't be excused.

 

I agree a defense  of Hutton Collins Clark and Warnock would arguably have not done any worse although for me I'd at the very least say Lowton is a better full back than Hutton and Vlaar is arguably a better centre back than Collins.

 

The bottom line is all this though is wages. By selling Collins who I'd imagine was on around 35k - 40k a week that would have funded the wages of Lowton and Westwood who will not be on anymore than 10k a week and Vlaar who I'd imagine is on no more than 20k a week. As for Hutton and Warnock they were given chances in pre season and Lambert didn't fancy them but I dare say their combined 70-80k a week wages would have also influenced Lamberts decision to deem them surplus to requirements. They clearly had no medium to long term future at the club.

 

The simple facts are that Lambert inherited a squad of players that had just clung on to its Prem league status by the skin of its teeth. That squad had already lost Cuellar and Heskey and needed major changes to have any chance of staying up. That job in itself would have been difficult enough but you throw into the mix having to also reduce the wage bill whilst over hauling a squad that had proved itself to be not good enough then the job becomes an almost impossible one.

 

With the above in mind I think in terms of signings he has done well with his net spend of 17 mill. As mentioned earlier by losing Collins wages it funded the signings of Vlaar, Westwood and Lowton. The wages of Cuellar I'd imagine would have funded the wages of Bennett, Benteke and El Ahmadi. Now you can argue that El Ahmadi and Bennett have been poor and I'd agree with that, although I still think Bennett will come good, but you have to consider when shopping in the bargain basement you are always likely to sign the odd dud.

 

Overall I would say that since the end of last season with Heskey, Cuellar, Collins completely off the wage bill and Warnock and Hutton having a portion of their wages being paid the club have taken around 170k in wages off the bill and I'd confidently predict all of Lamberts signing will be on no more than 120k combined. No manger in his right mind chooses to slash a clubs wage bill and have to sign players totally unproven at this level. That was the hand that Lambert was dealt though. If under those circumstances Lambert then manages to keep us up then he will have done a remarkable job and despite yesterdays defeat I still believe he will achieve that.

 

This is exactly where i am 100% agree Mark

[CI]

It's in our own hands just. We have 6 winnable home and away games. If we don't pick up the points we don't deserve to stay up.

[SeanO]

I'm **** hating this shit!!

[smetrov]

Much as I like Lambert and think he has signed some good young players with the money available - there's mounting evidence that he can't produce an effective defensive unit - and in managerial terms this isn't something you learn - it seems to be something you either can do or you can't.

 

Football this season has been the best since MON left IMO - We score some great goals - and seem to have 2 forwards who can put the ball in the net, yet still contribute to team play.

 

I think we are down now to be honest. Lets just say we have a barnstorming promotion  season next year, with some real attacking football, and plenty of goals - However even if we bounce back at the first attempt - the defence has to be a million miles better than it is now.....is Lambert the man to deliver such a defence ? - much as I like him , I've got to say I have my doubts.

[Mantis]

I don't understand why some people are saying things like "we're down now". It doesn't even make any sense. I don't necessarily believe we'll stay up but to say "we're down now" is just ridiculous.

[sutherland]

I don't understand why some people are saying things like "we're down now". It doesn't even make any sense. I don't necessarily believe we'll stay up but to say "we're down now" is just ridiculous.

Maybe they have based it on the evidence of the last 31 games?

[Robbie09]

I don't understand why some people are saying things like "we're down now". It doesn't even make any sense. I don't necessarily believe we'll stay up but to say "we're down now" is just ridiculous.

Maybe they have based it on the evidence of the last 31 games?

 

Or maybe they're drama queens?

[Big_John_10]

If under those circumstances Lambert then manages to keep us up then he will have done a remarkable job

I really don't understand how anyone can think that.

Hutton and warnock weren't sold last summer so they could have been used earlier on this season. The wages and fees of bennet, Lowton, KEA, Vlaar and Bowery could have all been spent differently. Instead Lambert ended up building a defence that is quite possibly one of the worst ones we've ever had. How can that be excused? How can that be shrugged off as he could do nothing else? It's ridiculous to argue such a thing.

Combine that with the awful formation choices and this defence of him is just laughable.

Keeping us in this league, even with such a limited budget, should have been the minimum expected of Paul Lambert this year. Ridiculous to somehow suggest its an incredible achievement.

[AstonMartin82]

Since Lambert has revamped the system i have always thought that we'd be ok by the skin of our teeth. We will score goals and when your in a relegation battle that is of paramount importance. What i can't get my head around is that we still haven't improved defensively. Is that down to a lack of quality, a lack of experience or not bringing in a better defensive coach to try and cut out the silly errors?

 

I have been debating in another thread on the merits of better coaching improving performance and while i don't agree that better coaching will make a good player into a world class player as i believe there is an ability threshold to consider, i do believe that with a better defensive coach our defence as a whole would improve positionally and have better concentration levels.

 

The lack of experience argument is valid but our defensive players have now had more than three quarters of a season to get used to one another and should be tighter as a unit and have the nous not to do what Baker did yesterday.

 

You can also put it down to a lack of quality but both Vlaar and Clark are now international centre backs so we should be better than we currently are.

 

I watched MOTD last night and the point was put forward that when the opposing team have the ball, as a collective, we are not good enough defensively including our forwards.

 

Maybe that is something Lambert and his coaching staff should consider?

 

Nice post.

 

I think one of your last lines is the main issue though... our issues I don't think are the defense but the midfield. The defense do seem to be put under incredible amounts of pressure and are going to be fragile due to this.

 

Whilst I fully agree that getting the best out of our defenders with a new coach would be beneficial, I think a proper defensive midfielder with a bit of steal to them would make a much bigger impact. Westwood and Bannan simply aren't in the defensive midfielder mould.

 

Too late to sort it out for this season though...

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

We have a decent run in, at least.

[danceoftheshamen]

Well a win now against Stoke would be huge.. Firstly it would drag them right into it putting us just a point behind with arguably an easier run in & better form going into that. Lose & they are pretty much safe however...A must win for me & this would put us in with a very good chance of escaping.

[Morpheus]

Since Lambert has revamped the system i have always thought that we'd be ok by the skin of our teeth. We will score goals and when your in a relegation battle that is of paramount importance. What i can't get my head around is that we still haven't improved defensively. Is that down to a lack of quality, a lack of experience or not bringing in a better defensive coach to try and cut out the silly errors?

 

I have been debating in another thread on the merits of better coaching improving performance and while i don't agree that better coaching will make a good player into a world class player as i believe there is an ability threshold to consider, i do believe that with a better defensive coach our defence as a whole would improve positionally and have better concentration levels.

 

The lack of experience argument is valid but our defensive players have now had more than three quarters of a season to get used to one another and should be tighter as a unit and have the nous not to do what Baker did yesterday.

 

You can also put it down to a lack of quality but both Vlaar and Clark are now international centre backs so we should be better than we currently are.

 

I watched MOTD last night and the point was put forward that when the opposing team have the ball, as a collective, we are not good enough defensively including our forwards.

 

Maybe that is something Lambert and his coaching staff should consider?

 

Nice post.

 

I think one of your last lines is the main issue though... our issues I don't think are the defense but the midfield. The defense do seem to be put under incredible amounts of pressure and are going to be fragile due to this.

 

Whilst I fully agree that getting the best out of our defenders with a new coach would be beneficial, I think a proper defensive midfielder with a bit of steal to them would make a much bigger impact. Westwood and Bannan simply aren't in the defensive midfielder mould.

 

Too late to sort it out for this season though...

Thanks for that 'VillaLi0n.'

 

Totally agree that defensively our midfield is shocking although hopefully Sylla will improve enough to give the added protection our defence needs next season?

 

It was however a good point made by Savage and Murray last night that our forwards need to do more defensively when they don't have the ball. We do need to be better defensively as a unit. You remember Ian Rush who use to harass the shit out of the opposing defences whenever they tried to play the ball out and it would help if Benteke, Weimann and Gabby did more of that.     

Edited April 1, 2013 by Morpheus

[paulfromsutton]

If under those circumstances Lambert then manages to keep us up then he will have done a remarkable job

I really don't understand how anyone can think that.

Hutton and warnock weren't sold last summer so they could have been used earlier on this season. The wages and fees of bennet, Lowton, KEA, Vlaar and Bowery could have all been spent differently. Instead Lambert ended up building a defence that is quite possibly one of the worst ones we've ever had. How can that be excused? How can that be shrugged off as he could do nothing else? It's ridiculous to argue such a thing.

Combine that with the awful formation choices and this defence of him is just laughable.

Keeping us in this league, even with such a limited budget, should have been the minimum expected of Paul Lambert this year. Ridiculous to somehow suggest its an incredible achievement.

 

Funny you say that I think Vlaar & Lowton have been good signings!

[markavfc40]

If under those circumstances Lambert then manages to keep us up then he will have done a remarkable job

The wages and fees of bennet, Lowton, KEA, Vlaar and Bowery could have all been spent differently. Instead Lambert ended up building a defence that is quite possibly one of the worst ones we've ever had. How can that be excused? How can that be shrugged off as he could do nothing else? It's ridiculous to argue such a thing.

Combine that with the awful formation choices and this defence of him is just laughable.

Keeping us in this league, even with such a limited budget, should have been the minimum expected of Paul Lambert this year. Ridiculous to somehow suggest its an incredible achievement.

 

The wages and fees of Bennett, Lowton, KEA, Vlaar and Bowery could well have been spent differently? I notice you have left out his two most exceptional signings from that list in Westwood and Benteke. He spent a total of 22mill over the summer on 7 players. I'd hazard a guess the likes of Lowton, Bennett and Westwood earn between 5k and 10k a week, KEA no more than 10k, Benteke and Vlaar 20k a week and Bowery no more than 5k. Thats 22 mill in fees and a maximum of 85k a week wages on 7 players. If you seriously think he could have spent that kind of budget any better you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Benteke and Westwood are now worth what we spent on all his signings in fees and wages.

 

For me of the summer signings Benteke and Westwood have done really well, Vlaar and Lowton have been OK, KEA and Bennett have been poor, although I believe  Bennett will come good and Bowery was never anything more than a squad filler and looks OK.

 

All mangers will make mistakes in the transfer market and when you are trying to buy players to play in the toughest league in the world  for relative peanuts both in terms of fees and wages the chances of signing a dud become far higher. For me he has signed just one dud and that is KEA and even he looks a better player than many players we have signed for far higher fees and wages in recent times.

 

Lambert made mistakes in terms of the formation when he went to 5 at the back I don't think anyone would dispute that. As I have said previously though I'd expect mistakes from a young and relatively inexperienced manager and would then judge that manager, as I would a player, on if he can learn from those mistakes and I believe that Lambert will.

 

If you seriously believe that keeping a club that has been on a rapid decline for 2 years before he arrived, a club that finished on 38 points last season, in the league this season whilst reducing the wage bill is no big achievement then you are deluded.

 

Lambert inherited a very poor squad both in terms of quantity and quality. A 17 mill net spend whilst having to drastically reduce the wage bill was never going to be enough to make this season anything but another season of struggle and so it has proved.

 

As I have said previously I think we will survive and when that is finally confirmed I'll certainly be thankful to Lambert and the players, many of whom have had to learn as they have gone along, for keeping us up. I also believe both the manager and our young and inexperienced players will be far stronger for having come through this season and expect us to hit the ground running come next season.

Edited April 1, 2013 by markavfc40

[paulfromsutton]

 

If under those circumstances Lambert then manages to keep us up then he will have done a remarkable job

The wages and fees of bennet, Lowton, KEA, Vlaar and Bowery could have all been spent differently. Instead Lambert ended up building a defence that is quite possibly one of the worst ones we've ever had. How can that be excused? How can that be shrugged off as he could do nothing else? It's ridiculous to argue such a thing.

Combine that with the awful formation choices and this defence of him is just laughable.

Keeping us in this league, even with such a limited budget, should have been the minimum expected of Paul Lambert this year. Ridiculous to somehow suggest its an incredible achievement.

 

The wages and fees of Bennett, Lowton, KEA, Vlaar and Bowery could well have been spent differently. I notice you have left out his two most exceptional signings from that list in Westwood and Benteke. He spent a total of 22mill over the summer on 7 players. I'd hazard a guess the likes of Lowton, Bennett and Westwood earn between 5k and 10k a week, KEA no more than 10k, Benteke and Vlaar 20k a week and Bowery no more than 5k. Thats 22 mill in fees and a maximum of 85k a week wages on 7 players. If you seriously think he could have spent that kind of budget any better you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Benteke, Vlaar and Westwood are now worth at least what we spent on all his signings in fees and wages.

 

For me of the summer signings Benteke and Westwood have done really well, Vlaar and Lowton have been OK, KEA and Bennett have been poor, although I believe  Bennett will come good and Bowery was never anything more than a squad filler and looks OK.

 

All mangers will make mistakes in the transfer market and when you are trying to buy players to pay in the toughest league in the world  for relative peanuts both in terms of fees and wages the chances of signing a dud become far higher. For me he has signed just one dud and that is KEA and even he looks a better player than many players we have signed for far higher fees and wages in recent times.

 

Lambert made mistakes in terms of the formation when he went to 5 at the back I don't think anyone would dispute that. As I have said previously though I'd expect the odd mistake from a young a relatively inexperienced manager and would then judge that manager, as I would a player, on if he can learn from those mistakes and I believe that Lamber will.

 

If you seriously believe that keeping a club that has been on a rapid decline for 2 years before he arrived, a club that finished on 38 points last season, in the league this season whilst reducing the wage bill is no big achievement then you are deluded.

 

Lambert inherited a very poor squad both in terms of quantity and quality. A 17 mill net spend whilst having to drastically reduce the wage bill was never going to be enough to make this season anything but another season of struggle and so it has proved.

 

As I have said previously I think we will survive and when that is finally confirmed I'll certainly be thankful to Lambert and the players, many of whom who have had to learn as they have gone along, for keeping us up. I also believe both the manager and our young and inexperienced players will be far stronger for having come through this season and expect us to hit the ground running come next season.

 

There was the sun writer who said we spent a combined 7 point something million on players that wasnt Benteke in the summer.

[Big_John_10]

If under those circumstances Lambert then manages to keep us up then he will have done a remarkable job

I really don't understand how anyone can think that.

Hutton and warnock weren't sold last summer so they could have been used earlier on this season. The wages and fees of bennet, Lowton, KEA, Vlaar and Bowery could have all been spent differently. Instead Lambert ended up building a defence that is quite possibly one of the worst ones we've ever had. How can that be excused? How can that be shrugged off as he could do nothing else? It's ridiculous to argue such a thing.

Combine that with the awful formation choices and this defence of him is just laughable.

Keeping us in this league, even with such a limited budget, should have been the minimum expected of Paul Lambert this year. Ridiculous to somehow suggest its an incredible achievement.

Funny you say that I think Vlaar & Lowton have been good signings!

Based on our goal conceded numbers?

Edited April 1, 2013 by Big_John_10

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

If we stay up, keep Benteke, invest smartly and sort out our defence, we could have a good season next year.

 

But this is Aston Villa.

[Big_John_10]

The wages and fees of Bennett, Lowton, KEA, Vlaar and Bowery could well have been spent differently? I notice you have left out his two most exceptional signings from that list in Westwood and Benteke

I'm talking about mistakes by lambert why would i include 2 excellent signings?

If you seriously think he could have spent that kind of budget any better you are living in cloud cuckoo land

Your defence of Lambert is ridiculous. How can you argue that this is the best we could expect? It's utterly stupid.

We have a defence that is about to let in over 60 league goals. Go and have a look when that last happened. And he signed 3 defenders. Complete stupidity to suggest that's the best we could expect.

KEA and Bowery contribute nothing. Again how can you possibly suggest there's nothing we could have done differently.

Love the way you shrug off mistakes with formations as simply a young manager learning. Yet if he keeps us up its a great achievement? It's his mistakes that have put us in that situation. You lay no blame on the manager but are happy to praise him with a great achievement if he does what he should have been capable of doing?

Your blind defence is absolutely ridiculous.