The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[blandy]

I dunno Jon. At least some of the media are reporting about people coming back who went there for kind of reasons of zeal/solidarity/religion/intense dislike of the way the UK (or Denmark or wherever) is, they did some figting or whatever, but found themselves utterly sickened and repulsed by what they saw there. The way they were treated as ordnance rahther than people and so on and these people, mostly all young have learnt something and in fact are not looking now at the UK or other western countires as an area of Jihad. QUite the opposite. People do and can change their outlook.

 

I know I took the mickey with the IRA thing to make a point, but it was also the case with them that some revised their outlooks. We shouldn't give up on that possibility and choice - it has to be better to let these people not only live and carry on, as better people, but also to disuade others like themselves, from the same towns and backgrounds from going.

 

it won't "solve" the problem completely, but it's something in the right direction, and it doesn't involve summary executions either.

[bickster]

Am I not right in thinking that some of these British ISIL people genuinely went there to fight Assad because of what he was doing to the Syrian people and now the fight has moved in a completely different direction they want to get out but are in fear of their lives if they do?

[Awol]

Pete, as you (probably) know I spend a lot of time in Yemen working with the tribes. They deal with Jihadist types daily and I know what they do to people and how they operate - along with their brethren in Syria/Iraq.

It sickens me and I know my views are pretty uncompromising as a result, but it's because I'm terrified of what will happen in our country if similar vermin are able to import their psychopathy and acquired military skills back in with them - to use against the general population.

Jihadis are evil in the good old fashioned sense of the word, and sometimes you have to fight fire with fire - preferably beyond the sight of those who would find it too morally challenging.

[Awol]

Am I not right in thinking that some of these British ISIL people genuinely went there to fight Assad because of what he was doing to the Syrian people and now the fight has moved in a completely different direction they want to get out but are in fear of their lives if they do?

So their parents/sisters/outreach workers say...

* 'em, frankly. British recruits are still flowing to IS knowing full well what they are about. If you jump on the back of a tiger there's no point crying when you decide it isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[snowychap]

 

Who are the marxists, out there not on here?

The PKK.

 

I think they're post-Marxist now.

More libertarian municapilist apparently.

Edited November 25, 2014 by snowychap

[bickster]

Am I not right in thinking that some of these British ISIL people genuinely went there to fight Assad because of what he was doing to the Syrian people and now the fight has moved in a completely different direction they want to get out but are in fear of their lives if they do?

So their parents/sisters/outreach workers say...

* 'em, frankly. British recruits are still flowing to IS knowing full well what they are about. If you jump on the back of a tiger there's no point crying when you decide it isn't all it's cracked up to be.

So whats the difference between them and the paintball team pictured above apart from the colour of their skin? Shouldn't the paintball team be taken out too? Especially as when they joined they thought they were on the right side - against Assad, who the west at the time were trying to depose.

[chrisp65]

Who becomes the arbiter of how bad a group has to be before we can kill them on the street without trial?

 

IS have certainly got all the attention at the moment, but in reality, in Britain the ONS figures suggest drug misuse killed nearly 3,000 people. Heroin alone killed nearly 800. Surely if we are looking at threats to us we need to be taking out the drug lords? I'm not saying all of them, you know, just kill the really big ones.

 

It's spectacularly difficult and the situation might change. But out of the 'theatre of war' and away from immediate threat we just can't go all gung ho hollywood on this. When we do that. we tend to take out too many Brazilian plumbers for my sissy liberal stomach.

[Awol]

Am I not right in thinking that some of these British ISIL people genuinely went there to fight Assad because of what he was doing to the Syrian people and now the fight has moved in a completely different direction they want to get out but are in fear of their lives if they do?

So their parents/sisters/outreach workers say...

* 'em, frankly. British recruits are still flowing to IS knowing full well what they are about. If you jump on the back of a tiger there's no point crying when you decide it isn't all it's cracked up to be.

So whats the difference between them and the paintball team pictured above apart from the colour of their skin? Shouldn't the paintball team be taken out too? Especially as when they joined they thought they were on the right side - against Assad, who the west at the time were trying to depose.

The paintball team (and they are a bit gimpy) are fighting for the Kurdish YPG, they are not fighting against Assad and Syrian government but against JaN (Al Qaeda) and IS.

That's the side that the UK is supporting with weapons, training and in Iraq (different Kurds) with SF and air strikes. The foreign fighters with the Kurds are akin to the International Brigade in Spain, but fighting Islamo-fascism instead of the European variety.

EDIT: for avoidance of doubt the Kurds are the democratic, pluralist, 'we wish the Middle East could all be like them', lot. And they do a really, really good mixed grill.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Awol

[bickster]

Am I not right in thinking that some of these British ISIL people genuinely went there to fight Assad because of what he was doing to the Syrian people and now the fight has moved in a completely different direction they want to get out but are in fear of their lives if they do?

So their parents/sisters/outreach workers say...

* 'em, frankly. British recruits are still flowing to IS knowing full well what they are about. If you jump on the back of a tiger there's no point crying when you decide it isn't all it's cracked up to be.

So whats the difference between them and the paintball team pictured above apart from the colour of their skin? Shouldn't the paintball team be taken out too? Especially as when they joined they thought they were on the right side - against Assad, who the west at the time were trying to depose.

The paintball team (and they are a bit gimpy) are fighting for the Kurdish YPG, they are not fighting against Assad and Syrian government but against JaN (Al Qaeda) and IS.

That's the side that the UK is supporting with weapons, training and in Iraq (different Kurds) with SF and air strikes. The foreign fighters with the Kurds are akin to the International Brigade in Spain, but fighting Islamo-fascism instead of the European variety.

Yes I'm fully aware of that but it doesn't really answer the question, as there are British fighters in IS who when they joined were there to fight Assad who at the time the British Government were trying to depose (still are apparently). Whats the difference?

[Awol]

Am I not right in thinking that some of these British ISIL people genuinely went there to fight Assad because of what he was doing to the Syrian people and now the fight has moved in a completely different direction they want to get out but are in fear of their lives if they do?

So their parents/sisters/outreach workers say...

* 'em, frankly. British recruits are still flowing to IS knowing full well what they are about. If you jump on the back of a tiger there's no point crying when you decide it isn't all it's cracked up to be.

So whats the difference between them and the paintball team pictured above apart from the colour of their skin? Shouldn't the paintball team be taken out too? Especially as when they joined they thought they were on the right side - against Assad, who the west at the time were trying to depose.

The paintball team (and they are a bit gimpy) are fighting for the Kurdish YPG, they are not fighting against Assad and Syrian government but against JaN (Al Qaeda) and IS.

That's the side that the UK is supporting with weapons, training and in Iraq (different Kurds) with SF and air strikes. The foreign fighters with the Kurds are akin to the International Brigade in Spain, but fighting Islamo-fascism instead of the European variety.

Yes I'm fully aware of that but it doesn't really answer the question, as there are British fighters in IS who when they joined were there to fight Assad who at the time the British Government were trying to depose (still are apparently). Whats the difference?

Not sure if you're trying to be pedantic or genuinely don't understand the difference between the Kurdish defence forces and IS? If you think you are making a point about moral equivalence, you're not.

[bickster]

I think I'm being perfectly clear, you however don't appear capable of providing an answer to the question, so I'll leave it there

[Awol]

I think I'm being perfectly clear, you however don't appear capable of providing an answer to the question, so I'll leave it there

The difference:

YPG/PKK/Kurdish units - fighting to prevent their geographical area being overrun by IS forces, thereby protecting their own people and other currently resident minorities and refugees from being massacred/enslaved/raped/trafficked etc.

IS Forces - sick evil bastards on stilts, bent on genocide and recreating the 7th Century version of the Islamic world.

That is the simple answer to your question, if you still don't see the difference / want to leave it there, fair enough.

[bickster]

Well it doesn't answer the specifics of the question, so I'll leave it there

[donnie]

Well it doesn't answer the specifics of the question, so I'll leave it there

Are the kurds dangerous to us? - NO

Are IS dangerous to us? - YES

[chrisp65]

all the depth and nuance of an actual U.S. security briefing

[Tayls]

Well it doesn't answer the specifics of the question, so I'll leave it there

Are the kurds dangerous to us? - NO

Are IS dangerous to us? - YES

(Not aimed at you donnie, just picked a bit to copy)

What Bicks was asking was:

If people who return from fighting with IS are going to be punished, then the same must apply to those who are fighting with the Kurds?

Surely they are both in the same boat?? If not, what are the differences between the two that means the Kurdish support fighters should not be held accountable for their actions when returning to the UK?

Edited November 25, 2014 by Tayls

[Awol]

Those fighting alongside the Kurds are defending innocent people.

Those fighting with IS are slaughtering innocent people, raping women, beheading children, enslaving minorities and generally behaving like it was 7th Century all over again.

British, Australian and US special forces are also fighting with the Kurds, not just half a dozen western volunteers.

That's the difference between them and why those volunteers with the Kurds are not automatically breaking the law. Participating in a foreign war is not illegal IF you are fighting the "Queen's enemies" (and I didn't just make that up), which they are by virtue of official UK involvement on the same side.

[omariqy]

7th Century?  Pretty sure that kind of stuff has been going on forever.  *cough* British empire *cough*

 

On topic I kind of see Awol's point but at the same time I would say that no British person should really be going to another country to fight in a war for another country.  Especially in a horrific war such as this. 

[Ads]

Its not really a point of debate, as IS have stated idological aims to take the region back to the 7th century as it sees itself as the natural successor to early Umayyad Caliphates.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Ads

[omariqy]

Yeah but raping children and pillaging did not occur for the main in the 7th century when the Islamic/Arabic empire was growing as it was forbidden as per the rules of war that the Prophet (pbuh) set out.  IS are not behaving as the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) did in the 7th century.  We are supposed to follow the ways of the Prophet (pbuh), i.e. the Sunnah.  They are not. 

Edited November 26, 2014 by omariqy