The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Rugeley Villa]

if israel does step back it will still be attacked by terrorists, aslong as israel exists there will never be peace. 

[Xann]

You may be right, but punitive strikes are cruel, ineffective and guarantee the next generation of Palestinians are every bit as hate filled as the current and preceding generations.

[Rugeley Villa]

yeah id agree with that, im not saying the palestinians should not have any hate because they should. a lot of these terrorists groups have always got to have an enemy,its what they live and die for. 

[chrisp65]

If somebody pushed my family off its land, made them live in squalor with criminals for a generation and then bombed and killed them yesterday but declared a truce this morning....well I'm not sure I'd give much of a shit about their ceasefire on their terms.

 

It's a false statement of fake intent.

 

This has to be a much longer game than shouting 'cree' once you've racked up the number of bombings you'd agreed was sufficient in some meeting.

 

This is going to be a bit harder to turn around than 3 hours of honouring a one sided ceasefire.

[Glarmorgan]

Massive retaliation hasn't worked over the last few years, has it?

 

Someone needs to step back, and it needs to be Israel.

 

On the current course what does the future hold?

 

Someone with a grudge obtaining a weapon that really packs a punch?

 

Israel aim its weapons towards the Hammas rockets, rocket launchers and armories. There are civilian casualties for sure, but they were not the target.

 

The future with Hammas, as I see it, holds nothing. This issue cannot be solved. Israel will not re-conquer Gaza and the Hammas is unable to harm Israel thanks to the Iron Dome (about 1200 rocket launches brought 1 casualty up today). Ceasefire is the most that can be achieved with Hammas and the Gaza situation can only be resolved as a part of an overall agreement with the Palestinians and the Arab world.

[Glarmorgan]

If somebody pushed my family off its land, made them live in squalor with criminals for a generation and then bombed and killed them yesterday but declared a truce this morning....well I'm not sure I'd give much of a shit about their ceasefire on their terms.

 

It's a false statement of fake intent.

 

This has to be a much longer game than shouting 'cree' once you've racked up the number of bombings you'd agreed was sufficient in some meeting.

 

This is going to be a bit harder to turn around than 3 hours of honouring a one sided ceasefire.

 

1. Israel wasn't the one declaring the cease fire. It was arranged by Egypt and Israel accepted its terms, and kept it for 7 hours, while the Hammas ignored it. The Hammas pissed of the Egyptians now. Not a smart move in my opinion.

 

2. As I posted earlier, Hammas is not shooting to "free up his lost lands". Beside, Hammas calls for the annihilation of Israel AND the Jews. They claim to keep on fighting till the state of Israel cease to exist. Not something you can negotiate...

 

3. If Hammas was to save as many lives in Gaza as it could - they should have accepted the ceasefire. They knew that by not accepting it they will bring only pain to Gaza. They chose to keep firing despite their total failure at the moment.

[Glarmorgan]

And in regard to the next generation hatred. Let me know if you have such educational programs over there in the UK

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Q8K5TmivM

Edited July 15, 2014 by Glarmorgan

[Glarmorgan]

And some insights from the Egyptian TV...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VtENBF_yjo

[chrisp65]

What's your agenda here Glar?

 

I'm struggling to understand where this is going.

 

 

 

As for the military dictatorship in Egypt not wanting to help an organisation with links to the Muslim Brotherhood - well that's a real shocker. 

[Xann]

There are civilian casualties for sure, but they were not the target.

 

They're someone's family dude, it's just going to drag in more haters.

 

More pictures of dead and mutilated Muslim children beamed to the Arab world.

 

All seemingly going unpunished.

 

... the Gaza situation can only be resolved as a part of an overall agreement with the Palestinians and the Arab world.

 

Quite, but they hate you, you have to take them by surprise.

 

Perhaps by doing something positive and meaningful.

[AVFCforever1991]

[omariqy]

I hate this nonchalant attitude to innocent people being killed. A Palestinian life is worth the same as an Israeli life.

'You know we don't aim to kill civilians but shit happens'

The only way this will end without diplomacy is world war 3. Thats not good for anybody.

[lapal_fan]

We should take weapons from the lot of them, and rule them like they need to be ruled.

 

It's like watching two little brothers, they'll keep going and going until intervention is deployed.

 

Threaten them with tactical strikes should anyone kill each other.

[omariqy]

We should take weapons from the lot of them, and rule them like they need to be ruled.

 

It's like watching two little brothers, they'll keep going and going until intervention is deployed.

 

Threaten them with tactical strikes should anyone kill each other.

 

Because our intervention always solves issues like these.

[omariqy]

Egypt's fake ceasefire, written by Israel, presented & accepted by Israel Hamas not even consulted http://buff.ly/1rpWEmS  by @richards1052

 

 

 

Gaza War: Day 9, 202 Palestinian Dead

by Richard Silverstein

on July 16, 2014

 

in Mideast Peace, Politics & Society

Let’s talk about the faux ceasefire.  Really a fraudulent ceasefire.  Egypt’s ceasefire with no one.  My Israeli source, who was consulted as part of the negotiations, tells me that this was not, in reality, an Egyptian proposal.  It was, in fact, an Israeli proposal presented in the guise of an Egyptian proposal.  Israel wrote the ceasefire protocol.  The Egyptians rubber-stamped it and put it out under their letterhead as if it was their own.

Jodi Rudoren typically called the ceasefire “one-sided,” meaning Israel honored it and Hamas didn’t.  But it was “one-sided” in a way she hadn’t considered.  Only one-side prepared the ceasefire and essentially presented it to itself and accepted it.  The other side wasn’t consulted.

The contents of the ceasefire proposal were a fraud as well.  They promised and delivered nothing.  They only called for a cessation of hostilities on the part of Israel and Hamas.  The same document has been signed in the past only to see Israel violate it almost as soon as the ink was dry.  There were no provisions for easing the Israeli siege.  No provision to open the border with Egypt.  Most importantly, the ceasefire didn’t address any underlying issues between the parties.  It was a guarantor for resuming hostilities at the earliest possible opportunity: these wars have come at two-year intervals over the past six years.  The next one will be in 2016, if not sooner.

The reason Israel felt compelled to do this, as Haaretz reports, was that John Kerry phoned the Egyptians and Israelis and told them he was coming to Cairo for the ceasefire talks, when essentially, there were none.  Bibi could smell a trap.  He knew this visit by Kerry was meant to embarrass Israel and maneuver it into defending its unconscionable assault on Gaza’s civilian population.  So the ceasefire was a ploy to deflect a U.S. stratagem.  As usual, Bibi is very deft on political tactics, but clueless as to a strategy.

Haaretz also makes clear that neither Hamas’ military or political wings were consulted in preparation or negotiation over the plan.  So how the Hell do you make such a proposal without including one of the parties?  Well, you don’t unless the entire exercise is a charade.

Israeli forces prepare for ground invasion

Returning to Egypt, General-President Sisi comes across as the buffoon here.  Puffed up and used by Israel for its own purposes.  Apparently, Sisi thought he could take up where Mubarak left off in serving as go-between when there is a war between Israel and Hamas.  He made one fatal error: at least Mubarak paid lip service to the Palestinian cause.  He allowed a trickle of people and goods to flow across the border into Gaza.  Sisi reviles Hamas as an alleged offshoot of his hated enemy, the Brotherhood.  That makes him persona non grata with Hamas.  Why would he have dreamed he could serve as an honest broker in this instance?

The problem for Bibi is that Hamas’ rejection has put him on the spot.  He now really has to crap or get off the pot regarding a ground invasion.  It appears the IDF wants Operation Protective Edge to be essentially a theatrical production in which it osentatiously briefs the media about the hundreds of targets struck.  All this is supposed to assure the Israeli public that its national army is really doing something concrete, when it’s doing almost nothing that will deter anyone for any length of time.

The IDF does not want to invade Gaza.  It remembers the punishing reception it received from Hezbollah in 2006.  It remembers the tongue-lashing it suffered at the hands of the Goldstone Report (till its main author recanted under pressure from the pro-Israel auto da fe).  Though the IDF isn’t a very effective fighting force, its leaders understand the implications of a ground invasion.  If you thought the air war was bloody, the next stage will see rivers of blood rushing through the alleys of Gaza.

In a way, Israel’s ploy is liable to blow up in its face.  It thought it had pulled one over on Kerry.  But the rejection of the ceasefire has applied much greater pressure on Israel to act.  When Israel acts it always overdoes it: too many dead, too many injured.  Lots of photos of martyred children, bombed mosques.  The coming days promise more of the same.

They’ve hinted at what’s to come with today’s destruction of the home of Mahmoud Zahar, the former foreign minister of Hamas’ Gaza government.  He is the highest level Hamas official to be so targeted.  This isn’t the first time Zahar’s home was attacked.  In 2003, Israel tried and failed to assassinate him.  Instead he was wounded and his son was martyred.

Eventually, Israel will target not just a home, but Zahar himself (again).  It’s almost guaranteed to happen.  Such an escalation will only lead to greater bitterness and make a real ceasefire impossible.  But will it produce any desired result?  Will it deter anyone or anything?  Have the assassinations of past Hamas or Hezbollah leaders weakened the militant groups?  Have they brought them “to their senses” from an Israeli perspective?  Nothing of the sort.  As I’ve written here a number of times, one of the definitions of insanity is doing something that’s failed many times before with the expectation it will succeed if you try just one more time.  Pretty much sums up Israel’s approach to Hamas.

Former Mossad chief, Ephraim Halevy, interviewed by CNN’s Christiane Amanpour, said Israel must talk with, and recognize Hamas.  He said that Sunni extremist groups like ISIS were far more formidable and radical potential enemies.  The problem is that none of the extremists running Israel’s government cares what an effete “leftist” like Halevy thinks.  He represents an old era when the Mossad preferred wits and strategem, rather than solely brute force to achieve objectives.

Today, the first Israeli fatality was reported.  A man who’d collected food parcels at his West Bank settlement and trucked them to the Erez Crossing to give to the troops, came under mortar attack and was killed.

Edited July 16, 2014 by omariqy

[omariqy]

http://t.co/cl3phzCm86

 

How Egypt messed up the Gaza ceasefire

 

Jul. 16, 2014 | 2:31 AM

 

 

The Egyptian cease-fire proposal that was published Monday night took most members of the diplomatic-security cabinet by complete surprise. Economy Minister Naftali Bennett heard about it in a television studio moments before going on air. Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman heard about it on the radio.

A senior Israeli official said Lieberman knew that talks were being held with the Egyptians, but had no idea a proposal was being finalized. Upon hearing the news, he realized that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon, who were running the talks, had left him out of the loop.

Over the previous few days, the cease-fire talks had proceeded lackadaisically. The Egyptians didn’t demonstrate great interest in advancing the process, and independent initiatives like that of Quartet envoy Tony Blair never got off the ground.

All that changed at about noon on Monday, when U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, then in Vienna for talks with Iran about its nuclear program, launched a marathon of phones calls with Netanyahu, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, Egyptian Foreign Minister Sameh Shukri and others.

Senior Israeli officials said that in every phone call that day, Kerry offered to fly immediately to Cairo, and perhaps even Jerusalem, to try to advance a cease-fire. But Egyptians and Israelis both politely rejected that offer, telling Kerry they are already in direct contact and didn’t need American mediation.

Cairo objected to Kerry coming because it wanted to show that President Abdel-Fattah al-Sissi’s new government was capable of playing Egypt’s traditional diplomatic role with regard to Gaza without outside help. Jerusalem objected because it thought Kerry’s arrival would be interpreted as American pressure on Israel, and thus as an achievement for Hamas.

Ironically, however, Kerry’s pressure to fly in pushed Egypt and Israel to accelerate their own efforts to craft a cease-fire proposal. A senior Israeli official said the Egyptian proposal essentially adopted the ideas raised by Abbas several days earlier. Abbas had suggested that the Egyptians first declare an end to hostilities by both sides, and then begin detailed negotiations over various issues related to Gaza, such as easing restrictions on its border crossings with both Egypt and Israel.

The final proposal was drafted by Egyptian intelligence in cooperation with the Egyptian Foreign Ministry. The Israeli negotiating team was comprised mainly of senior defense officials, plus Netanyahu’s envoy Isaac Molho. The Foreign Ministry was quarantined; not a single Israeli diplomat was included on the team.

A senior Israeli official said most of the negotiations over the cease-fire took place between Egypt and Israel.

Hamas left out

Palestinian factions in the Gaza Strip were also surprised to learn of the Egyptian cease-fire proposal, especially Hamas, which still views itself as the sovereign in Gaza.

All the factions knew that talks about a cease-fire were taking place, but they had expected Egyptian intelligence to fully coordinate any serious proposal with them, as had been the case in the past. They did not expect to hear about it from the media – nor did they expect that Egypt would coordinate with Israel but not with them.

The first Hamas response came from the organization's spokesman in Gaza, Sami Abu Zuhri, who assailed the proposal and termed it capitulation to Israel. Senior Hamas official Mushir al-Masri echoed this, saying the proposal laid the ground for Israel's continued control of all the levers of power over Gaza.

Next, the military organizations weighed in, first and foremost Hamas' own military wing. They, too, termed the proposal a capitulation to Israel, and voiced vehement opposition to a cease-fire unless their demands were met – first and foremost ending the blockade of Gaza and releasing all the prisoners freed in the 2011 exchange for kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit who have been rearrested over the last few weeks.

A few hours later, however, Islamic Jihad – which is normally even more militant than Hamas – officially announced that it had accepted the cease-fire. It was expected to issue a statement later saying that its position had been coordinated with Hamas.

In contrast, the Palestinian Authority termed the Egyptian proposal vital, as it would stop what it described as Israel's "aggression" and enable negotiations on the terms of a more lasting truce.

Palestinian sources said Tuesday's escalation was undoubtedly meant to improve Hamas' negotiating position against both Egypt and Israel. 

When a member of the Israeli team asked whether Hamas would agree to the terms of the initiative, the Egyptians tried to reassure him, saying that if Israel agreed, Hamas would have no choice but to do the same.

In reality, the opposite occurred. The Egyptians gave Hamas’ political leadership minimal information and didn’t communicate with members of its military wing at all. The internal disputes between these two wings further contributed to the confusion, and to Hamas’ feeling that Egypt was pulling a fast one.

When the diplomatic-security cabinet met Tuesday morning, there was no real discussion of the Egyptian proposal. Netanyahu, one minister said, presented the proposal as a fait accompli to which no changes were possible.

“The general idea was that if the Egyptians had issued a cease-fire proposal, it would be inappropriate for Israel to reject it,” said one minister. “Netanyahu and Ya’alon told us this is an opportunity to strengthen the alliance with Egypt, and a positive response to the Egyptian proposal would earn us a lot of brownie points internationally and increased legitimacy to expand the operation against Hamas if needed. This was true and logical, and most of the ministers were convinced. But a few hours later, we discovered we’d made a cease-fire agreement with ourselves.”

Edited July 16, 2014 by blandy

[MakemineVanilla]

 

We should take weapons from the lot of them, and rule them like they need to be ruled.

 

It's like watching two little brothers, they'll keep going and going until intervention is deployed.

 

Threaten them with tactical strikes should anyone kill each other.

 

Because our intervention always solves issues like these.

 

 

The British must take a lot of the blame.

 

WW1 T E Lawrence persuaded the Arabs to fight the Turks on the promise of independence.

1917 Balfour made his declaration that the British government were in favour of a Jewish homeland being established in Palestine.

With the Ottoman Empire destroyed the British took over Palestine and reneged on their promises to the Arabs.

1922 the British Mandate for Palestine was confirmed by the League of Nations.

1946 Jewish terrorists (Irgun) blew up the King David hotel, killing 91 (part of British headquarters)

1947 Palestine is partitioned against Arab wishes - the attacks and atrocities begin.

The British evacuation.

The mandate ran out 1948, Ben-Gurion declares Israel state.

1948 War between Israel and Arab states.

700 000 Palestinian Arabs flee or leave Israeli held areas. 

1949 armistice.

 

So yes, it looks like the British made a cock of it and then left.

Edited July 16, 2014 by MakemineVanilla

[lapal_fan]

Well I'm out of ideas. Let's just leave them to it.

[omariqy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Arab_Revolt

 

 

 

The flag was designated by the British diplomat Sir Mark Sykes, in an effort to create a feeling of "Arab-ness" in order to fuel the revolt.^[1] Although the Arab Revolt was only very limited in scope and concerted by the British rather than by Arabs themselves, the flag influenced the national flags of a number of emerging Arab states after World War I. Flags inspired by that of the Arab revolt include those of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, Sudan, Syria, the United Arab Emirates, Yemen, the Palestinian national movement (also used by the PLO and by the Palestinian Authority), Somaliland, the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Libya.

Soldiers in the Arab Army during the Arab Revolt of 1916-1918. They are carrying the Arab Flag of the Arab Revolt and pictured in the Arabian Desert

The horizontal colors stand for the Abbasid, Umayyad and Fatimid Caliphates. The red triangle refers to the Hashemite dynasty.^{[citation needed]}

The Hashemites were allies of the British in the conflict against the Ottoman Empire. After the war ended, the Hashemites achieved or were granted rule in the Hejaz region of Arabia, Jordan, formally known as the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, briefly in Greater Syria, and Iraq.

Greater Syria was dissolved after only a few months existence, in 1920. The Hashemites were overthrown in the Hejaz in 1925 by the House of Saud, and in Iraq in 1958 by a coup d'etat, but retained power in Jordan.

A 98.5 by 197 foot version of the flag flies from the Aqaba Flagpole, currently the fifth tallest freestanding flagpole in the world, located in Aqaba, Jordan.

 

 

[chrisp65]

How's that cure for AIDS and Hepatitis the Egyptian military invented coming along?

 

Anybody remember that story?

 

Totally credible and competent bunch the current Egyptian military dictatorship.

 

 

wonder kebab

 

Ah yes, as mentioned previously, keep a big pool of uneducated people, you never know when you might need 70,000 volunteers to try your anti aids medicinal kebab.

 

Let's not talk about the Egyptian military as though they are anything other than the biggest bully with the most guns that happen to be running the state next door and have their own anti Hammas agenda (for the record, I'm not 'pro' anyone in this, they are all competing to be worse than each other).

Edited July 16, 2014 by chrisp65