Houllier - released from contract with FFF

[bickster]

It's funny because people were rightly pissed off when MON left us in the lurch and yet they're scolding Houllier for not doing the same thing to the FFF.

Its funny, by and large I don't think they are the same people. See thats the thing, some people were pissed off with the way MON left and some people are pissed off with the way Houllier is joining us. Those some people are not the same as the other some people

[C4rvillan]

Good things come to those who wait.

Patience is a virtue.

[Mantis]

It's funny because people were rightly pissed off when MON left us in the lurch and yet they're scolding Houllier for not doing the same thing to the FFF.

Its funny, by and large I don't think they are the same people. See thats the think, some people were pissed off with the way MON left and some people are pissed off with the way Houllier is joining us. Those some people are not the same as the other some people

I think pretty much everyone (myself included) was pissed off when MON left so suddenly.

[bickster]

It's funny because people were rightly pissed off when MON left us in the lurch and yet they're scolding Houllier for not doing the same thing to the FFF.

Its funny, by and large I don't think they are the same people. See thats the thing, some people were pissed off with the way MON left and some people are pissed off with the way Houllier is joining us. Those some people are not the same as the other some people

I think pretty much everyone (myself included) was pissed off when MON left so suddenly.

You'd be wrong, I could find you a great many posters who were ecstatic and a whole different group that thought it was the boards fault in some way so their anger was not directed at MON.

[Mantis]

It's funny because people were rightly pissed off when MON left us in the lurch and yet they're scolding Houllier for not doing the same thing to the FFF.

Its funny, by and large I don't think they are the same people. See thats the thing, some people were pissed off with the way MON left and some people are pissed off with the way Houllier is joining us. Those some people are not the same as the other some people

I think pretty much everyone (myself included) was pissed off when MON left so suddenly.

You'd be wrong, I could find you a great many posters who were ecstatic and a whole different group that thought it was the boards fault in some way so their anger was not directed at MON.

I never said most people were sad when MON left, I said most people were pissed off in the way that MON left us in the lurch. Two different things.

[bickster]

And I said that wasn't true, there were at least two other common view points as I've already stated. There were a good many people that were Happy he'd gone and another quite sizeable group of people that thought the board must have done something in order for MON to leave in the way he did so were not pissed off at MON at all. Please don't fall into the trap that you have the common viewpoint, none of us usually have such a thing

[Mantis]

And I said that wasn't true, there were at least two other common view points as I've already stated. There were a good many people that were Happy he'd gone and another quite sizeable group of people that thought the board must have done something in order for MON to leave in the way he did so were not pissed off at MON at all. Please don't fall into the trap that you have the common viewpoint, none of us usually have such a thing

So are you denying that there are people who were both pissed off with MON for leaving so suddenly and at the same time are annoyed with Houllier for not doing the same to the FFF?

[bickster]

No I'm not denying it, but I am saying those people number far fewer than your post suggested, I'd say those people who fell into that category are a very small minority of the total active posters on VT

[Mantis]

How do you know?

[Risso]

Good things come to those who wait.

Patience is a virtue.

The three points didn't last night.

[bickster]

How do you know?

I don't know, I do however have an informed idea based on the fact I've pretty well read nearly every post on the subject three, four or more times and I don't think there is a great correlation with people who were pissed off at MON leaving in the manner he did and the people who are pissed off with Houllier not coming quick enough. I think by and large the groups are mutually exclusive with a few exceptions, your post seems to intimate that there are many. I disagree.

[Risso]

So because Milner wanted to leave us for more money, we shouldn't sign players who want to join us for more money from smaller teams? Are we going back to the days of not trying to save penalties and good sportsmanship all round? Because I don't think many other people will be playing by the same rules.

[snowychap]

I've heard it said a few times on here that in France it is against the law to not work your notice. What is the punishment for not doing so?

What are the statutory minimum notice periods in your jurisdiction?

France

The statutory minimum notice period upon dismissal/ redundancy depends on the employee's length of service within the same company: There is no statutory minimum notice period for an employee who has less than 6 months of service; 1 month's notice period is required for an employee with 6 months to 2 years of service; and 2 month's for an employee with at least 2 years of service. Longer notice periods can be contractually agreed upon or provided for by CBAs. With very few exceptions, the Labor Code does not provide for a notice period in the case of a resignation

European Law Checkpoint i.e. some euro solicitors website

Though this from Cornell University calls that in to question:

“Garden Leave”

“Garden leave” upon dismissal

The notion of “garden leave” as such does not exist under French law.

Upon termination of employment, the employer may release the employee from working during all or part of the notice period. However, if the employee refuses, the employer has no other alternative than either allow the employee to work during his/her notice period or suspend him/her during said notice period and pay him/her an indemnity in lieu of notice equal to the salary (including fringe benefits) that he/she would have received had he/she worked.

Unless the employer can prove that the employee’s presence was likely to jeopardise the conduct of the business, the employee could potentially claim that it is an aggravating circumstance to his/her termination (emotional distress resulting from the abrupt departure) and request damages.

If it is the employee who expressly requests to be released from his/her obligation to work during the notice period, and if the employer agrees to it, then the employer is not required to pay the employee and the employment contract may be terminated upon the employee effectively leaving the company.

“Garden leave” upon resignation

The same rule applies when an employee resigns.The employer may release the employee from working during all or part of the notice period and pay him/her an indemnity in lieu of notice, or alternatively require the employee to work until the end of the notice period.

and

The Labor code lays down the following minimum notice periods:

• for employees with less than six months service, the applicable collective

bargaining agreements will apply;

• for employees with six months to two years service, notice is at least one

month, (subject to any legal, collective or contractual provision more favourable

to the employee);

• for employees with two years of service or more, notice is at least two months

(subject to any longer notice period specified in any legal, collective or

contractual provision);

• executives employees (“cadres”) are generally entitled to a three-month notice,

irrespective of length of service.

Edit: I think the confusion arises because there is not the same procedure in the Labour Code for resignations as there is for dismissals according to this french law firm:

Resignation:

Under French Employment law, each party to an indefinite term employment contract has the right to put an end to the contract at any time during the employment relationship.

The resignation is a unilateral act of will by which an employee informs his employer that he wishes to put an end to his employment contract.

Contrary to the dismissal, which is subject a strict procedure regulated by the labor Code, the resignation is not submitted to any particular formal process. Therefore, there is no obligation for the employee to ask for a meeting with the employer or to notify the employer in writing about his decision. However, it is highly recommended for the employee to notify his resignation in writing and more particularly by registered letter with RRR so that he may keep a proof of the date of notification which is the starting point of the notice period he has to comply with.

Furthermore, to be valid, the resignation must be based on a serious, clear and unambiguous will of the employee. If it is not the case, the employer should refuse the resignation letter and inform the employee that the employment relationship is still in force, unless he is in receipt of a new and valid resignation letter.

The employer should make sure that the employee did not resign under pressure or the influence of a strong emotion as French courts pay attention to the circumstances around the ruptured contract and do not hesitate to hold that the resignation is in fact an unfair and abusive dismissal if it does not reflect a clear and unambiguous willingness from the employee to terminate the employment contract.

A resignation is hence not presumed, it has to be proved by the plaintiff. Therefore, an employer cannot infer a resignation from the employee’s period of absence or leave.

[Mantis]

So because Milner wanted to leave us for more money, we shouldn't sign players who want to join us for more money from smaller teams? Are we going back to the days of not trying to save penalties and good sportsmanship all round? Because I don't think many other people will be playing by the same rules.

What? :?

[billy_loes]

So because Milner wanted to leave us for more money, we shouldn't sign players who want to join us for more money from smaller teams? Are we going back to the days of not trying to save penalties and good sportsmanship all round? Because I don't think many other people will be playing by the same rules.

What? :?

He's suggesting that as a club we are taking an exagerated stance in doing the 'right' or 'honourable' thing by letting Houllier work notice.

His analogy being Milner wated more money and left but because we are taking Corinthian attitiude we wouldnt sign a player from say Bournmouth, a very good player desined for greatness, because it is deemed poor form.

I dont subscribe to this viewpoint.

[Risso]

You're right Billy, that's exactly what I'm saying. This "honour" thing is just a load of old nonsense to try and disguise the board's inept handling of the whole manager issue.

[dudevillaisnice]

French daily L'Equipe reports that Houllier is nonetheless on the verge of making his first Aston Villa signing, fitness coach Robert Duverne. The two men worked together at Lyon between 2005-7, but Duverne since went on to gain notoriety as the fitness coach for the France national team. It is in that role that he was involved in a heated training ground altercation with Manchester United 's Patrice Evra during France's farcical World Cup campaign over the summer.

Duverne has already resigned from his current post at Ligue 1 club Arles-Avignon, reportedly in advance of joining the Aston Villa backroom staff.

Sounds like bollocks its from imscouting but it uses a french paper as a source...but i'll post it anyway.

http://tinyurl.com/395d2xe

[Cracker1234]

You're right Billy, that's exactly what I'm saying. This "honour" thing is just a load of old nonsense to try and disguise the board's inept handling of the whole manager issue.

Risso, you just can't handle the fact that they're letting him tie up his commitments with the FFF can you?

[Jon]

You're right Billy, that's exactly what I'm saying. This "honour" thing is just a load of old nonsense to try and disguise the board's inept handling of the whole manager issue.

Mart.

I fully agree that Ged could, and perhaps should if he 110% wanted the Villa job, have simply walked out on his FFF job/contract, and joined as Villa manager the next day.

Villa would then have had to pay FFF some sort of compo, although it would not have been that sizeable.

However, it seems Ged did not want to "burn his bridges" with the FFF, and implied that in the future he may need/be involved with them again, in some sort of capacity. He simply didn't want to walk out on them and "leave them in the lurch", so to speak.

Villa respected this, and I'd gues Ged gave some sort of assurance that he could work out a much shprter notcie period with the FFF, letting him join up with us in a couple of weeks.

Whilst not ideal, i'd guess Villa could have:

a. Gone along with Ged and wait those extra few days for him, in a gesture of good faith.

b. Pressured him into joining immediately. Could have backfired, and he culd have said "non".

c. Moved onto other (less preferable) targets.

I'm guessing Villa went for a combo of 1 and 2, and probably asked politely if he could join sooner, and he said he'd prefer not. :winkold:

Still, a bit of a shambles, yes.

The Board need to be able to play a little more hardball than this.

[kidlewis]

I wonder if we are paying the FFF compensation? perhaps he is working some of his notice so we don't have to pay a couple of million to get him?