NRC. Are you a fan or not?

[granville]

For me, it's just lies because he looks uncomfortable on the ball. In the Everton game, I can't remember him being caught on the ball apart from once down the left, in fact a few times the ball didn't seem there to be won and he got his body in there and showed good touches to get away from his men.

I can't believe I'm even debating this. He doesn't show good touches to get away from people, he stabs at the ball and if it goes into space then he is fast enough to run away.

He constantly runs into dead ends with the ball, fails to make very simple but important forward passes and turns the wrong way because of lack of control.

IF (note: that is a **** BIG if) he was able to use his agility, balance, power, speed and energy to break up play and give the ball a short distance to someone who isn't club footed WITHOUT going on the multiple headless chicken runs and trying stuff he can't do (the fabled Makelele role) then I'd be a big fan.

But that just doesn't seem to happen. He has never provided anything close to an assist IIRC and his shooting is worse than his passing. Are you telling me he wasn't comfortably the worst passer, shooter and dribbler of the ball in the team on Sunday?

[barry'sboots]

If NRC is that bad can some of his detractors explain why we always seem to perform better with him in the team?

Last season starting:

- Plop x 2

- Blues (a)

- Bolton (h)

- Fulham (h)

- Spurs (h)

This season starting

- Everton (h)

All wins apart from the Plop loss and Spurs draw, where we were drawing and winning I think when Nige went off?

I can think of plenty of games when he wasn't in there when we played pretty poorly!

[Chindie]

That Everton performance was chuffing awful, it's fantastic we managed to get the win and it's nice to see a blood and thunder defence scrape the win but the midfield wasn't doing it's job at all, hence why we had so much pressure on us. If Nigel was so much the Makalele, we'd not have been half under that much pressure because he'd have been able to stop thing pretty much single handedly and get the ball to our players.

What actually happened was he spent the entire half, along with the rest of the team to be honest, doing last ditch defending. It's impressive, but it ain't good.

And I wish the Bolton match would just be put to bed, they were shocking that game. They were probably worse than West Ham this season. You could have won that with Douglas Bader in midfield.

[granville]

What about this? Milner off, Coco on and in 14 minutes we went from beating Man Utd away to losing.

We were also drawing with Blues before he went off.

To be fair I don't mind him playing but he provides nothing going forward and is generally poor on the ball. There is a place for him in our side IF he only plays to his strengths, but the fact he becomes some kind of midfield master/game winning messiah when he's benched gets on my tits.

[claret75]

Did you think we were good against Everton? They should have got a point at the very least.

We were lucky to win at Liverpool and were just ok at home to them.

Fulham were poor.

We struggled against Spurs, they totally dominated the 2nd half even when NRC was on the pitch.

Blues away, we were ok and managed to nick a win.

[chips'ngravy]

NRC is a headless chicken. It's a classic case of someone becoming a fantastic player whilst sitting on the bench. He has no composure on the ball whatsoever. A central midfield comprised of NRC and Petrov is a worrying prospect after having enjoyed a prolonged spell of Barry and then more recently Milner being the pivotal components. We are about to go back to the bad old days of being overrun in the middle. I don't care how many tackles he puts in, if he gives it away straight away then it's a waste of bloody time.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

But he doesn't give it away

He's completed 142/160 passes from this year and last year in his starting games. Of course though, that is every time.

[barry'sboots]

Did you think we were good against Everton? They should have got a point at the very least.

Not particularly but we won. We were poorer against Newcastle but got murdered. I know our defence wasn't as strong in that game but our midfield was powder puff without Nigel and was totally outmuscled by Barton, Smith and Nolan as it would have been on Sunday by a strong Everton CM.

We were lucky to win at Liverpool and were just ok at home to them.

Not from what I saw and the commentators after were all saying that it was a deserved away win and NRC was MOTM. He was certainly as good as anyone when we played them at VP as well.

Fulham were poor.

That's the same team that got to the Europa final and finished top half from memory. We beat them comfortably. I forgot, when NRC plays and we win the other team are poor like Bolton were. When he doesn't and we struggle to break down Wolves, Wet Spam, Wigan and Blues etc. at home, what then?? I suppose that they all really hit top form when they played us??

We struggled against Spurs, they totally dominated the 2nd half even when NRC was on the pitch.

They did come back into it second half but it was with Nigel off and the low energy Petrov covering that they actually scored.

Blues away, we were ok and managed to nick a win.

We got a win there. Not many did that at SHA. I also thought that this was the one game where MON made a tactical switch - from 4-5-1 to 4-4-2 - and we won the game.

We look better when his energy and drive are in there. He will never be a Ronaldo, or even a Milner, but Petrov certainly won't either. You criticise him for making runs into the other half but not having end product but he only has to make those runs because his supposedly better footballing partner, Stan, hasn't got anything like the legs needed to do this.

[granville]

But he doesn't give it away

He's completed 142/160 passes from this year and last year in his starting games. Of course though, that is every time.

I don't know where you got that figure from but I suspect it's wrong. Also passing isn't how NRC usually gives the ball away, miscontrolling the ball so badly someone else gets it and running forward until he has nowhere to go are numbers 1 and 2 on his list.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

But he doesn't give it away

He's completed 142/160 passes from this year and last year in his starting games. Of course though, that is every time.

I don't know where you got that figure from but I suspect it's wrong. Also passing isn't how NRC usually gives the ball away, miscontrolling the ball so badly someone else gets it and running forward until he has nowhere to go are numbers 1 and 2 on his list.

Was posted on here few pages back using the stats from the guardien chalkboard.

And also, yes of course they are number 1 and 2. All those times it happens because the passing myth has finished.

Reo-Coker could mis-control a ball once in a game.

Any other player (probably apart Heskey) could mis-control the ball 3 times in a game.

Then asked, 'who mis-controlled the ball 3 times and who mis-controlled the ball once'

It'll always be Reo-Coker 3 times, that's how it seems to work. One bad pass 'he constantly gives it away'....one bad touch 'his touch constantly let's him down'....etc..etc..he might not look good controlling or passing and might look very akward but he doesn't give it away anything close to as much as people make out.

[granville]

It'll always be Reo-Coker 3 times, that's how it seems to work.

I know what you're saying, some players are flavour of the month and some get unfair criticism. Downing can put a cross in that's headed behind for a corner and he's a prick for not picking out a man, then Marc does the same thing and he's a corner winning hero. I get that. The thing is though that NRC's lack of on the ball ability (IMO at least) badly effects our forward momentum.

For example one of his passes might still go to our team but it will be behind them or too late, costing vital seconds in a counter or vital yards on a run.

One bad pass 'he constantly gives it away'....one bad touch 'his touch constantly let's him down'....etc..etc..he might not look good controlling or passing and might look very akward but he doesn't give it away anything close to as much as people make out.

Again, I sort of agree but he costs us fluidity of play without making easily definable errors.

Like I said I don't mind him playing but I'd much rather he stayed in our half and limited his touches and time on the ball.

Do you honestly think Reo-Coker is not the worst passer, dribbler and shooter in our team on Sunday?

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

It'll always be Reo-Coker 3 times, that's how it seems to work.

I know what you're saying, some players are flavour of the month and some get unfair criticism. Downing can put a cross in that's headed behind for a corner and he's a prick for not picking out a man, then Marc does the same thing and he's a corner winning hero. I get that. The thing is though that NRC's lack of on the ball ability (IMO at least) badly effects our forward momentum.

For example one of his passes might still go to our team but it will be behind them or too late, costing vital seconds in a counter or vital yards on a run.

One bad pass 'he constantly gives it away'....one bad touch 'his touch constantly let's him down'....etc..etc..he might not look good controlling or passing and might look very akward but he doesn't give it away anything close to as much as people make out.

Again, I sort of agree but he costs us fluidity of play without making easily definable errors.

Like I said I don't mind him playing but I'd much rather he stayed in our half and limited his touches and time on the ball.

Do you honestly think Reo-Coker is not the worst passer, dribbler and shooter in our team on Sunday?

No he is our worst technical player I'd say from the main sort of 15/16 players we used along with Cuellar but I also think people used to go on about how he needs to play a simple passing game and now that he does, people start talking about lack of vision etc...I think his passing has improved, like when we did counter the chance where Reo-Coker did badly on his cross to Agbonlahor, on the counter attack, the ball into Young okay, easy pass but was in front of him and good weight and allowed Young to run onto it. So I don't think it's bad.

Also last thursday, in our midfield, it was so congested, there was a lot of sideways passes and I personally thought Reo-Coker was the one who showed most intent trying to actually look for the strikers or getting it wide.

Personally I think he's improved his all round game and has experience now of when to burst forward to take the pressure of our defence and then when to play it simple. I think he's living off a reputation in 07-08 where I actually thought he did dwell on the ball too much and give it away a fair bit. Since then, last year and this year, all I've seen from him is his defensive game and then a simple short passing game. That's his job so I think he does it well.

[granville]

I agree he has improved, I agree he plays it simple now much more than he used to but IMO he still has a way to go and those forward bursts are no use at all as far as I'm concerned. The main thing that gets on my tits is reading comments like "we would of won that game if NRC played".

Nothing he has ever done suggests to me that he turns draws into wins. He stop draws from becoming losses on occasion but IMO no three points have ever been snatched through Coker's efforts.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Well I don't think I've ever said, I've probably said if Reo-Coker played we'd of been a lot more solid. For example vs Everton, had he not played, it's just my personal opinion, they would of found better openings through the middle and possibly got a goal or two leading to a draw or a loss.

Last season, I actually didn't mind him being out the team, Milner gets through just as much defensive work with that added quality going forward. I'd of liked to see Reo-Coker play like Arsenal away, sort of games in a more defensive line up but that was it really. I respected the way the team worked and it did. This year though, I just don't see Ireland good enough defensively to play along side Petrov, I think both are clever and good at reading the game, but there's not enough muscle in there, hence why I think we need him this season badly.

[granville]

You know what, I think we pretty much agree, we were just arguing against opposite sets of extremists.

I agree that he could have made a difference to us positively in how we set up in some games where we were going to be overrun, just like how I think Cuellar should play RB against Stoke, Bolton and all the big (physically) sides. The one bone of contention I have now is about Ireland not being good enough defensively. I don't how good "enough" will need to be this season but he covers a lot of ground and puts in a lot of tackles.

A central 3 would be ideal but I'm not going to wet my knickers if I see Ireland in a two.

[barry'sboots]

Ireland and Stan would be powder puff. They were against Newcastle and would be against most sides. It would be like the Stan and Barry pairing at the end of 08/09 and look how well that worked. It also means that Ireland is not playing where he is at his best i.e. where K-Mac seems to want to play Ash - off the main striker.

I actually think NRC is at his best against the likes of Wigan and Blackpool i.e. poorer teams where we don't really need Stan's ball retention but we need energy to combat theirs and generate a tempo and someone to get the ball forward quickly before they get 10 men behind the ball. Look at Wet Spam, Wolves, Wigan etc. at home last year compared to the performance against Bolton. I know I keep quoting Bolton but it is the only game that MON played NRC in a 4-4-2 with someone other than Stan alongside him.

I think against the better teams, Stan's ball retention is probably more useful although I would still look to use NRC early on in the H2 to bring energy/close a game out or in a 4-5-1 as we don't have other options.

[Big_John_10]

We look better when his energy and drive are in there. He will never be a Ronaldo, or even a Milner, but Petrov certainly won't either. You criticise him for making runs into the other half but not having end product but he only has to make those runs because his supposedly better footballing partner, Stan, hasn't got anything like the legs needed to do this.

Do you think the new manager will prefer Coker over petrov?

K mac has no favourites and prefers him, clearly he can't be too annoyed with petrov for not doing the things you think he should

[villadale]

actually think NRC is at his best against the likes of Wigan and Blackpool i.e. poorer teams

I think the opposite to this 'barry'sboots. Against the crap teams who park the bus in front of their goal we need craft, ability, invention. NRC is a warrior and i like him but he can not trap a bag of cement. However against the top 4 teams who are going to run us ragged we need battlers to get at them, press them and make it difficult for them. We need to play 4-5-1 i think as stan & ireland are not strong enough and Stan & NRC are not good enough as a 2 man midfield. Hopefully Delph will come good when fit as seems to fit the battler and gd footballer mould, fingers crossed.

[bickster]

Is NRC a warrior or is he just athletic and in the wrong place and having to make up ground a lot?

[villadale]

I think he is athletic yes, warrior may be a bit strong as is more known for his strops than work rate but if he is interested then maybe. I don't think it stands out that he has a positional sense problem, will keep my eye on that from now on though. If he is stood in the wrong place but still presses the ball & wins ball for us then i don't think it really matters anyhow