mockingbird_franklin Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 That may be true but without a definition what are you comparing the current too. In your ideal world how would freedom work/what would it be? I guess you have to decide what freedom you are describing, I guess in the example that was previously examining, it is limited to the freedom from serfdom or slavery, of third party ownership of you body and it's property or labour to use another term, which isn't an all encompassing freedom but is a pretty good starting point, you can be free from that without having total freedom to do whatever you wish, After all we are all still bound by natural laws such as gravity, Maybe I haven't broken the lifetime of conditioning for acceptance of our current system enough to answer the question regarding freedom, I believe we have a system that makes it next to impossible for anyone within it to ever be truely free, it is after all a system of control at many different levels, govern means to control, which by definition is the opposite of freedom, but one observation is some definitely experience greater freedom than others within the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Total freedom, or even restricted freedom whereby you do anything but you can't deliberately harm others would make getting down the hospital for an x-ray tricky. Seeing much of the world beyond where a horse could take you would be quite time consuming and the internet would be intermittent at best. Similarly, getting access to medicine that actually works, alcohol that doesn't blind you and food beyond turnips and barley would all be more difficult. Total anarchic freedom would, in my opinion, be a bit of a ball ache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Total freedom, or even restricted freedom whereby you do anything but you can't deliberately harm others would make getting down the hospital for an x-ray tricky. Seeing much of the world beyond where a horse could take you would be quite time consuming and the internet would be intermittent at best. Similarly, getting access to medicine that actually works, alcohol that doesn't blind you and food beyond turnips and barley would all be more difficult. Total anarchic freedom would, in my opinion, be a bit of a ball ache. So what you are saying is you accept sacrificing some freedoms for the ability to travel abroad use motor vehicles, have access to modern big pharma medicine etc, so how far are you willing to sacrifice freedom and what freedoms are you happy to give up.what would you accept as agreeable payment for those sacrifices? would you want to give up ownership of your body for instance? to become a slave? As I said freedom under the current system is an illusion, my criticism is it's wrong to either paint or accept the illusion as a reality. I guess and that ties in with this thread and my strong belief that democracy as we currently experience it is an illusion. we live in a world of smoke and mirrors, where perception is stronger than the reality, Government has become the master, when it was created to be the servant, and as master, if it see's fit, it takes freedoms away, it replaces our rights with privileges. I'm sure you are right though, life worth living has only existed since the industrial revolution, those lost tribes in the amazon forest must surely feel their lives are such a pain in the ass. that what they really need for a fulfilling life is a plastic football shirt, sitting there waiting for modern civilization to rescue them. Now i realise i'm using two extremes, neither one might be the ideal, but maybe there is a nice compromise somewhere between these two extremes of living, I'm sure as hell certain it isn't what we have now. Maybe we need to re-examine what living actually means though, along with our consideration of what freedom is, how we ensure neither is given up as little as possible as society develops, again how we do that in our conditioned state of mind is going to be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Well, I guess the test is, if I was so taken with your post that I wanted to walk away from my life and go and live in the amazonian rainforest wearing just my spongebob underpants, I could. Equally, if I want to drink and eat myself into gross western oblivion whilst playing video games over the internet with strangers in Laos, then I can. Hell, i don't even have to work for the money for the burgers if i don't want to. It'll just arrive because I was born here. If I choose not to go to work tomorrow, I phone in sick. If I want to go to Ireland next Wednesday and take the kids with me, I can phone and book. Don't even need to pack a passport or ask the permission of anyone but StennaLine. But then again. If my kids get ill this afternoon I can arrange for trained experts to get here in 7 minutes and not worry about the cost. So whilst I accept it ain't anywhere near perfect. It's not quite bad enough to trade it for an unknown unexplained alternative where I get to live to the ripe old age of 37 but with toothache for the last 20 years of that. Just as government thinks it can quietly take away 'rights', if the people genuinely believe a line has been crossed then that government will be run out of town with its arse on fire. The incremental little changes and tweeks to freedoms by administrative slight of hand don't stop me being me. When they do stop me and 5,000,000 others being ourselves we will get off our lardy pale western backsides and sort it out. Incidentally, I'm not sating all is wonderful. I'm saying the alternatives aren't sufficiently enticing at the moment. Clearly as you have an internet service provider and a desire to shoot the breeze on a footy based messageboard, you can't really disagree too strongly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Incidentally, I'm not sating all is wonderful. I'm saying the alternatives aren't sufficiently enticing at the moment. Clearly as you have an internet service provider and a desire to shoot the breeze on a footy based messageboard, you can't really disagree too strongly. Interesting and somewhat strange jump in logic, as i post on a messgeboard and have the internet I obviously can't disagree with your point of view, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Incidentally, I'm not sating all is wonderful. I'm saying the alternatives aren't sufficiently enticing at the moment. Clearly as you have an internet service provider and a desire to shoot the breeze on a footy based messageboard, you can't really disagree too strongly. Interesting and somewhat strange jump in logic, as i post on a messgeboard and have the internet I obviously can't disagree with your point of view, I have jumped in my logic and presumed you are not perched in a tree eating grubs off a stick and opting out of the system. Therefore, my second jump is that as we do still have free will and you haven't bailed out to that tree in Bolivia you can't be that upset with the current way of things. Not that strange or jumpy is it? It's ok to protest at the current system, just don't make out like it's the Matrix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I have jumped in my logic and presumed you are not perched in a tree eating grubs off a stick and opting out of the system. Therefore, my second jump is that as we do still have free will and you haven't bailed out to that tree in Bolivia you can't be that upset with the current way of things. Not that strange or jumpy is it?Yes, it does seem to be. Indeed, it's not that far from the Mensch coffee thing on Have I Got News For You.It's ok to protest at the current system, just don't make out like it's the Matrix.I'm not sure of the worth of the discussion when it is being discussed in such terms as the above or when examples of freedoms given are such things as the logistics of travel to Ireland next Wednesday (wouldn't you have to ask the permission of your employer and your kids' school, for example - oh, and Mrs P, too?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Well the Mensch coffee thing is lost on me, don't know what that is. Surely if somebody is genuinely worried that we are slaves and our bodies owned by others and freedom is an illusion then they shouldn't be wasting their time on messageboards? What version of freedom would you prefer as an example instead of freedom of travel? The point on needing permission from Mrs P or the kids school isn't a serious one is it? We were worried about the state turning us into slaves and owning our bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Well the Mensch coffee thing is lost on me, don't know what that is.It was a coffee chain related criticism of people demonstrating against the excesses of capitalism (or something along those lines).Surely if somebody is genuinely worried that we are slaves and our bodies owned by others and freedom is an illusion then they shouldn't be wasting their time on messageboards?I'd have thought that if someone was genuinely worried about that then there would be little point in doing anything else.The point on needing permission from Mrs P or the kids school isn't a serious one is it?It's as serious as the points you were making, I think (given the topicality of prosecution for removing kids from school without permission perhaps it's much more serious than many of the other points?). Is there any reason why you didn't include permission from your employer?We were worried about the state turning us into slaves and owning our bodies.Well, I can't speak for what you are or anyone else is worried about.The state is as much a slave to the system as we all are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I think if it was me genuinely worried about being a slave and freedom being an illusion I'd like to think I'd do something about it, not be here alternating between Assassins Creed and VT. That would be a bit limp, being a voluntary slave. I genuinely don't feel a slave of the local education authority and their term time rules on unauthorised absence. I might be deluded, but I don't see their inset day rota as part of a greater conspiracy of forced compliance. If somebody can show me how that links in to slavery and conspiracy I'm happy to get more informed. I kinda presumed Mrs P would be coming with me, we get on quite well, and I didn't ask my employer if I can break free of serfdom because, well, I'm not sure asking permission not to be a slave would be a good start. There you go, perhaps I'm just so far sucked into the system I just can't see it. Or perhaps its the flouride in the water making me comply with my overlords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I think if it was me genuinely worried about being a slave and freedom being an illusion I'd like to think I'd do something about it, not be here alternating between Assassins Creed and VT. That would be a bit limp, being a voluntary slave. I genuinely don't feel a slave of the local education authority and their term time rules on unauthorised absence. I might be deluded, but I don't see their inset day rota as part of a greater conspiracy of forced compliance. If somebody can show me how that links in to slavery and conspiracy I'm happy to get more informed. I kinda presumed Mrs P would be coming with me, we get on quite well, and I didn't ask my employer if I can break free of serfdom because, well, I'm not sure asking permission not to be a slave would be a good start. There you go, perhaps I'm just so far sucked into the system I just can't see it. Or perhaps its the flouride in the water making me comply with my overlords. He isn't allowed to take a break from plotting revolution to check info on his favourite football team? The 'Mensch coffee thing' can be seen here. It's from an episode of HIGNFY that was filmed at the same time as Occupy London. Mensch, a Tory MP at the time, aired the argument that it was paradoxical or ridiculous that many of the same people protesting were purchasing beverages from Starbucks. The other panelists spent a happy minute or two mocking that argument, with good reason, because it's rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) I think if it was me genuinely worried about being a slave and freedom being an illusion I'd like to think I'd do something about it, not be here alternating between Assassins Creed and VT. That would be a bit limp, being a voluntary slave. I genuinely don't feel a slave of the local education authority and their term time rules on unauthorised absence. I might be deluded, but I don't see their inset day rota as part of a greater conspiracy of forced compliance. If somebody can show me how that links in to slavery and conspiracy I'm happy to get more informed. I kinda presumed Mrs P would be coming with me, we get on quite well, and I didn't ask my employer if I can break free of serfdom because, well, I'm not sure asking permission not to be a slave would be a good start. There you go, perhaps I'm just so far sucked into the system I just can't see it. Or perhaps its the flouride in the water making me comply with my overlords.All rather amusingly written but, again, a pretty fatuous response to what are genuine comments.Edit:'Greater conspiracy of forced compliance'/'overlords'? If that's the level of your response then you're pitching it at an audience other than me and, as such, can count me out of your fun. Edited July 7, 2014 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) I think if it was me genuinely worried about being a slave and freedom being an illusion I'd like to think I'd do something about it, not be here alternating between Assassins Creed and VT. That would be a bit limp, being a voluntary slave. Not sure if this is aimed at me or not, it seems to hint by referencing my belief that like many things people believe to exist, they are merely an illusion with nothing but a belief system giving them credence,however as I don't play any computer/games system games, then surely it can't, or maybe it's just a weak assed discussion technique, either way not much point discussing matters further other than to reiterate the point I made earlier, the best slave to have is one that will argue vehemently he is free, As snowy points out above, and for similar reasons, count me out of your fun. Edited July 7, 2014 by mockingbird_franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 A slave works for no pay. In the UK people who don't work are paid (or at least subsidised). Slavery? ******ks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) As mark twain once said, “It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” Another favourite You'll never understand the forest by looking at one leaf on one tree Edited July 7, 2014 by mockingbird_franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 As my Nan* once said, "better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt". *she didn't really say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mockingbird_franklin Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 As my Nan* once said, "better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt". *she didn't really say that. so you choose not to follow that advice, * *given by your nan or persons unknown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lp_villa830 Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 That may be true but without a definition what are you comparing the current too. In your ideal world how would freedom work/what would it be? I guess you have to decide what freedom you are describing, I guess in the example that was previously examining, it is limited to the freedom from serfdom or slavery, of third party ownership of you body and it's property or labour to use another term, which isn't an all encompassing freedom but is a pretty good starting point, you can be free from that without having total freedom to do whatever you wish, After all we are all still bound by natural laws such as gravity, Maybe I haven't broken the lifetime of conditioning for acceptance of our current system enough to answer the question regarding freedom, I believe we have a system that makes it next to impossible for anyone within it to ever be truely free, it is after all a system of control at many different levels, govern means to control, which by definition is the opposite of freedom, but one observation is some definitely experience greater freedom than others within the system. How would one be truly free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 As mark twain once said, “It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” Another favourite You'll never understand the forest by looking at one leaf on one tree I really would be interested to know in what way I am a slave under the illusion of freedom. I promise not to be fatuous, if we are slaves and you know the truth you shouldn't be giving coded messages. Please tell me plainly how we are slaves and what action we should take to free ourselves. No more fatuous comparisons with conspiracy theorists, genuinely interested to see if you genuinely think we are slaves and what action we should be taking. This is your opportunity to show somebody the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 As mark twain once said, “It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.” Another favourite You'll never understand the forest by looking at one leaf on one tree Meamwhile, in the real world..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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