Bolitics The New Condem Government

[thetrees]

The disgrace stems from growing public awareness of these things, and the recognition even among their own cheerleaders in the press that the city is in need of a complete clean-up, not from the failure of the prawn cocktail offensive.

With the 'disgrace' stemming from 'growing public awareness', is it fair to observe that those in power at the time were more than aware of things, and happy to go with them as they waxed lyrical in "no more boom and bust" mode?

And to think that the author of those words is the shadow chancellor. The potential lurch back in a couple of years time could be the greatest catastrophe of all.

[peterms]

The disgrace stems from growing public awareness of these things, and the recognition even among their own cheerleaders in the press that the city is in need of a complete clean-up, not from the failure of the prawn cocktail offensive.

With the 'disgrace' stemming from 'growing public awareness', is it fair to observe that those in power at the time were more than aware of things, and happy to go with them as they waxed lyrical in "no more boom and bust" mode?

And to think that the author of those words is the shadow chancellor. The potential lurch back in a couple of years time could be the greatest catastrophe of all.

Which of the things in the list I gave do you think the last government (I suppose that's who you mean, if not, please say) were aware of? Seems to me that some were deliberately concealed, some were perhaps able to be identified by regulators but not picked up on properly, and some (like bonuses) were accepted on the back of uncritical acceptance of the claims of the city about what a valuable role it plays in the UK economy.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Germans pushing for EU super state.

We're doomed, doomed I tell ye.

[thetrees]

The disgrace stems from growing public awareness of these things, and the recognition even among their own cheerleaders in the press that the city is in need of a complete clean-up, not from the failure of the prawn cocktail offensive.

With the 'disgrace' stemming from 'growing public awareness', is it fair to observe that those in power at the time were more than aware of things, and happy to go with them as they waxed lyrical in "no more boom and bust" mode?

And to think that the author of those words is the shadow chancellor. The potential lurch back in a couple of years time could be the greatest catastrophe of all.

Which of the things in the list I gave do you think the last government (I suppose that's who you mean, if not, please say) were aware of? Seems to me that some were deliberately concealed, some were perhaps able to be identified by regulators but not picked up on properly, and some (like bonuses) were accepted on the back of uncritical acceptance of the claims of the city about what a valuable role it plays in the UK economy.

Yes, i was referring to the previous government, although I am of the opinion that any government of any colour would probably have gone along with it. The difference would have been perhaps that a Tory government wouldn't have pissed away the revenues, and therefore the inevitable recession would most likely not have been felt so deeply.

Of the things that you list it is fair to assume that the government were aware of at least some of them. Gordon Brown, the architect of the situation that the country finds itself in, was a great friend of the banks, simply because they were making him look good. In that situation turning a blind eye comes very easy to an ambitious politician.

Unless, of course, Gordon Brown can be put down in history as a complete buffoon.

[thetrees]

Germans pushing for EU super state.

We're doomed, doomed I tell ye.

Something that they have been doing since they turned the 15 to 25.

Blitzkrieg without bullets.

[tonyh29]

I read the telegraph article about the Proposed EU changes last night , seem Europe is determined to get rid of us or force us to tow the line

Looking at making it harder for countries to veto any treaty but pushing for a change to a majority being enough to force it through , at least when Ireland votes no the next time they won't have to go through the expense of another vote to deliver the answer Germany want.

Talk of an elected Euro president as well ?

Seems we will finally get our referendum and bid the EU a fond Bonjour ( copyright D Trotter )

[Awol]

Germans pushing for EU super state.

We're doomed, doomed I tell ye.

Something that they have been doing since they turned the 15 to 25.

Blitzkrieg without bullets.

I have it on the good authority of many VT'ers that this is hysterical nonsense. Therefore you must be one of those bigoted little Englander types who thinks that anyone without a title should live in Downton Abbey as a slave of the rich. Oh, and you're probably a racist too..

..Or maybe what EU sceptics have been saying for years was actually a thoughtful and reasoned argument, not the steaming pile of horse poo it was caricatured as?

The end state of ever closer European integration was more than a little obvious to anyone who cared to look at the evidence, it is only the UK establishment and mainstream media who pretend otherwise.

[bickster]

I have it on the good authority of many VT'ers that this is hysterical nonsense. Therefore you must be one of those bigoted little Englander types who thinks that anyone without a title should live in Downton Abbey as a slave of the rich. Oh, and you're probably a racist too..

Any chance you could stop slinging mud at unnamed posters and actually have a reasoned debate? Not only is it contrary to the spirit of the site but it cheapens any argument you may have.

Not only that but I'm fairly sure you can't find a single post that ever says what you've claimed as a response to something akin to what the Trees has said.

[Jon]

is anyone going to bother voting at next election? just seems like a complete waste of time as much as i hate to say it

Your point has some worth, although I think you would not see a Labout Govt assaulting the poor, needy and vulnerable in the way the Tories have been doing (note I say Tories and not Coalition. Do the Lib Dems even exist any more?)

both parties are shit

There are more than 2 political parties out there Dem. :winkold:

(although much does depend on who stands in your constituency come GE time)

[Jon]

^^

that's the same article I quoted my stat from Jon :-) ( bit further down the page)

The author also says 15% may not be enough and gives some examples

You didn't put a link up, quote the source, or indeed do anything other than put a 1 eyed stat up.

So I was doing the honours.

If you're going to start quoting poll stats, please do the honourable thing and put a link up, or at least quote the entire article.

[Jon]

I have it on the good authority of many VT'ers that this is hysterical nonsense. Therefore you must be one of those bigoted little Englander types who thinks that anyone without a title should live in Downton Abbey as a slave of the rich. Oh, and you're probably a racist too..

What a truly bizarre post.

[Awol]

I have it on the good authority of many VT'ers that this is hysterical nonsense. Therefore you must be one of those bigoted little Englander types who thinks that anyone without a title should live in Downton Abbey as a slave of the rich. Oh, and you're probably a racist too..

Any chance you could stop slinging mud at unnamed posters and actually have a reasoned debate? Not only is it contrary to the spirit of the site but it cheapens any argument you may have.

No problem, I've been told many times - in less than diplomatic terms - by Drat and others of a pro-EU persuasion on here that the EU doesn't intend to create a Federal Superstate. I've tried to rebut that with evidence from the EU itself, foreign media and the architects of the EU project that this is exactly what is intended and always has been

I would be very happy to have that debate in a mature and grown up fashion that didn't end in being called a little Englander / bigot, etc.

Not only that but I'm fairly sure you can't find a single post that ever says what you've claimed as a response to something akin to what the Trees has said.

The EU has been put on notice that UK Plc no longer defines being a good European as simplying agreeing to whatever Germany and France tell us we have to do. Unless they want to force the hand of the political class and allow the Eurosceptic British public to end our EU membership they'd be wise to think very carefully before making any more threats.

….It's like the UKIP and BNP manifesto are being quoted verbatim here….Maybe if the inward insular looking Little Englander mentality was removed and understood that industry and everything that goes with it is multi-national things could move forward.

Supporters of parties especially who held very anti EU views, (The Tory right), UKIP and yes BNP ) have totally lost sight of what is happening here in a desire to build walls in typical Little Englander mentality way.

More here

I won’t bother linking anymore posts but you get the idea. The constant references to the BNP are an obvious attempt to conflate “EU sceptic” with “racist” and the little Englander stuff is there in black and white.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, but to reiterate I'm more than happy to have the real discussion without the nonsense.

[tonyh29]

Not only that but I'm fairly sure you can't find a single post that ever says what you've claimed

you are joking right ?

little Englander is probably the most overused word in the History of villatalk , behind up the wrong 'un

Edit : reading the rest of the thread I see awol has already done this :-)

[tonyh29]

^^

that's the same article I quoted my stat from Jon :-) ( bit further down the page)

The author also says 15% may not be enough and gives some examples

You didn't put a link up, quote the source, or indeed do anything other than put a 1 eyed stat up.

So I was doing the honours.

If you're going to start quoting poll stats, please do the honourable thing and put a link up, or at least quote the entire article.

right o ..

who'd'a' thunk it a biased post in a politics thread :winkold:

I didn't feel the need to quote the whole article as it wasn't required in the context of my post which was in reference to "delusional" people

that labour have a poll lead wasn't relevant as it's about Ed not Labour and the poll lead is 100% about anti government feeling than Pro Ed feeling .. which appears to be backed up by other polls and stats , i.e the most popular word attributed to Ed by respondents was " out of his depth"

[blandy]

Part of the problem is that a lot of the MPs and public faces of the, er, more sceptical views towards Europe are indeed foaming at the mouth loons. So when they say something that's actually a valid, sane viewpoint, it has tended to get swamped in amongst the more extreme and wild froth that tends to come out of their pie-holes at the same time.

Some of them are borderline racists, bigots, little englanders, massive hypocrits and fantasists.

So the thing is when you've got the "benefit" of their support and championing for a viewpoint, you're rather going to get seen by a large part of the public and media in general, as something of a bunch of loons.

[mjmooney]

Personally, I was always in favour of a (western) European superstate, with a single currency - but only based upon the 1973-1979 membership.

The expansion since then has **** it completely.

[tonyh29]

Some of them are borderline racists, bigots, little englanders, massive hypocrites and fantasists.

isn't the argument that the left are quick to call anyone who disagrees with their policies a racist, bigot, little Englander , xenophobe etc

and by definition doesn't that make them just as guilty as the very people they are attacking ?

[tonyh29]

Personally, I was always in favour of a (western) European superstate, with a single currency .....

Boo Hiss :-)

[Awol]

Part of the problem is that a lot of the MPs and public faces of the, er, more sceptical views towards Europe are indeed foaming at the mouth loons. So when they say something that's actually a valid, sane viewpoint, it has tended to get swamped in amongst the more extreme and wild froth that tends to come out of their pie-holes at the same time.

Some of them are borderline racists, bigots, little englanders, massive hypocrits and fantasists.

So the thing is when you've got the "benefit" of their support and championing for a viewpoint, you're rather going to get seen by a large part of the public and media in general, as something of a bunch of loons.

Okay, but for future reference I prefer 'eccentric' to loon..

The fact that Barraso (with German support) has now openly said that he intends to pursue a fully Federalised Europe, we are going to be faced with a choice: The end of the UK as an Independent State or exiting the EU before it fully assumes Statehood. The idea that we can be in the EU but not part of a Federal State (which is allegedly the stance the coalition seem to be steering for) is a non-starter in reality for all kinds of reasons.

Being as Barrosos' timeline for this is the 2014 European elections, and any treaty change requires a referendum in the UK this subject is going to become quite mainstream, quite soon.

[Jon]

Personally, I was always in favour of a (western) European superstate, with a single currency - but only based upon the 1973-1979 membership.

The expansion since then has **** it completely.

Agreed, Mikael