Bolitics The New Condem Government

[snowychap]

Also, could we not have a scenario snowy, whereby a coalition is formed (much like now) but then breaks down later, effectively resulting in a lame duck minority government that cannot be removed as the opposition cannot reach this 55% level?

Surely that has to be a concern.

I don't see why it should happen for any lengthy period of time if at all.

As I said before:

As far as I've heard, the Scottish parliament has a system with a super-majority of 66% with other conditions and checks.

I don't think it's unfeasible to design a system where one is not stuck with a completely lame duck government.

A confidence vote would still be done on a simple majority. Perhaps we could make it a statutory part of the constitution that the PM should offer his resignation if that happens and someone else should try and form a government (if they are unable to do so within a specified time, such as is one of the checks in the Scottish system, I believe then an election is called).

Gringo's suggestion is also not bad but I would prefer to take away the ability of any government to dissolve parliament and have that just as a matter for the house as a whole.

As I suggested before, we could perhaps try and make it so they couldn't table a confidence motion in their own time and it could only be tabled as an opposition motion via a hopefully new backbench business committee.

We have seen that lame duck government is bad, so why make it easier?

No, we have seen that bad government is bad (and good government is okay).

[Gringo]

A confidence vote would still be done on a simple majority. Perhaps we could make it a statutory part of the constitution that the PM should offer his resignation if that happens and someone else should try and form a government (if they are unable to do so within a specified time, such as is one of the checks in the Scottish system, I believe then an election is called)

So some lib dems defect to the other side and support a vote of no-confidence, which the govt loses by 2 or 3 votes. The govt then forces a dissolution vote, but the opposition are 4% short of the 55% mark. So Dave says, well I didn't really lose after all did I, so we'll carry on; or he resigns as leader of party (remaining PM) and the tory party hold a leaders election and the only nominations are call me dave and bill cash, with dave winning on a show of hands and so is back in as PM two weeks later.

55% is a very bad idea - there are a few simple alternatives which provide the same security without the drawbacks.

[snowychap]

55% is a very bad idea - there are a few simple alternatives which provide the same security without the drawbacks.

I'm not arguing in favour of 55%. :?

I agree that 55% is a bad idea; I don't think that it's as fundamental a constitutional problem as has been suggested - just that it's not a good idea because it throws up the potential for many a problem and doesn't actually deal with the issue at hand, i.e. taking the power of dissolution out of the hands of the PM, for anything other than this situation which is a shockingly bad way to make law.

I've suggested a number of ways that one could look at dealing with it and handing the power to dissolve parliament back to parliament itself rather than have it in the hands of the government/governing party.

Perhaps one of the safeguards would be to have an opposition majority on the backbench business committee?

The govt then forces a dissolution vote...

How does the government do that if that is not allowed as I was suggesting?

[EDIT] I know I said confidence vote (and I don't want to mix the two up as I think in a fixed term parliament they ought to be different) but I took it for granted that it would be read as dissolution vote, also.

Why would Dave remain as PM in any other way than Gordo did post this election? Unless, of course, he can form another government which would have the confidence of the house. That would surely be fair enough?

[Gringo]

55% is a very bad idea - there are a few simple alternatives which provide the same security without the drawbacks.

I'm not arguing in favour of 55%. :?

Didn't say you were. the above was actually referencing one of your ideas, ie that only the opposition could raise the vote of no confidence

[snowychap]

Didn't say you were. the above was actually referencing one of your ideas, ie that only the opposition could raise the vote of no confidence

Well, if you include any dissolution vote, too, that would discount the Dave says we didn't really lose possibility, wouldn't it?

[stewiek2]

I've seen the future....

[Awol]

Looks like everything that's been hidden regarding our debt is about to come into the light. Ouch.

the REAL national debt figures

Sir Alan Budd will lead the new Office for Budget Responsibility in an audit that will produce growth and debt forecasts for the emergency budget. The review is expected to move over into the measurement of national debt, billions of pounds worth of public liabilities in Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and future public sector pension payments which the Tories in opposition accused Gordon Brown of keeping "off balance sheet" while in government.

The latest figures from the Institute for Fiscal Studies, calculated for the Guardian, suggest public debt could double from £890bn to £1,790bn, taking into account some PFI and pension liabilities.

More than double the numbers Labour have admitted to. Or maybe it will be the Tories fault for actually telling it how it is, as the rather crazed Mr Blanchflower seems to suggest..

[Richard]

I thought 1 trillion was bad enough to be honest Awol. I think if we are in the do do then we are in the do do. Not sure there are degrees of do do to be in! Mind you approaching 2 trillion is a lot of do do!

[Ads]

Jesus **** H Christ. That’s an awful lot of debt.

[Gringo]

The review is expected to move over into the measurement of national debt, billions of pounds worth of public liabilities in Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and future public sector pension payments which the Tories in opposition accused Gordon Brown of keeping "off balance sheet" while in government.

PFI should be included in the debt figures as it was an accounting trick just designed to keep the numbers off the balance sheet. Pensions never have been and should, and only will so that the tories can use it as a big stick to screw the public sector out of their contractual entitlements.

[kidlewis]

PFIs have butt **** us for years, I wonder if Lab have included the full costs of those in their debt figures. I doubt it.

[snowychap]

The review is expected to move over into the measurement of national debt, billions of pounds worth of public liabilities in Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and future public sector pension payments which the Tories in opposition accused Gordon Brown of keeping "off balance sheet" while in government.

PFI should be included in the debt figures as it was an accounting trick just designed to keep the numbers off the balance sheet. Pensions never have been and should, and only will so that the tories can use it as a big stick to screw the public sector out of their contractual entitlements.

I agree with our man in Iberia.

Also, do the published National Debt figures give some indication of how much has to be refinanced each year?

[snowychap]

This is a bit of an innovation from Auntie:

Democracy live with links to both Houses of Parliament; the Assemblies of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland; Westminster Hall; Select Committees, and the European Parliament.

It also has a search for your representatives bit which shows the MP and MEPs for one's postcode (with information about their election result, contact details, a brief CV and what looks like future audio and video links for each of them).

[mjmooney]

This is a bit of an innovation from Auntie:

Democracy live with links to both Houses of Parliament; the Assemblies of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland; Westminster Hall; Select Committees, and the European Parliament.

It also has a search for your representatives bit which shows the MP and MEPs for one's postcode (with information about their election result, contact details, a brief CV and what looks like future audio and video links for each of them).

Also recommended: They Work For You

[snowychap]

This is a bit of an innovation from Auntie:

Democracy live with links to both Houses of Parliament; the Assemblies of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland; Westminster Hall; Select Committees, and the European Parliament.

It also has a search for your representatives bit which shows the MP and MEPs for one's postcode (with information about their election result, contact details, a brief CV and what looks like future audio and video links for each of them).

Also recommended: They Work For You

Aye, that's good, too, Mike. Great for getting details of debates and transcripts of what people have said as well as voting patterns but it doesn't have the live video and doesn't include the European element (something which I'm sure TonyH will congratulate the Beeb for :winkold:).

[tonyh29]

are the Beeb on the Draxis of evil list :-)

[Gringo]

are the Beeb on the Draxis of evil list :-)

Even so, I'm sure dave will ensure this innovation / wasteful exuberance uing public funds will soon be curtailed. He knows who his real friends are.

[Awol]

The review is expected to move over into the measurement of national debt, billions of pounds worth of public liabilities in Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and future public sector pension payments which the Tories in opposition accused Gordon Brown of keeping "off balance sheet" while in government.

PFI should be included in the debt figures as it was an accounting trick just designed to keep the numbers off the balance sheet. Pensions never have been and should, and only will so that the tories can use it as a big stick to screw the public sector out of their contractual entitlements.

I'm pretty sure (but you'll know better than me) that Labour legislated to make it illegal for private sector companies NOT to include future pension commitments within their debt, but exempted themselves (ie, the public sector). That being the case I'm not sure why it's wrong to actually bring both into line under the same rules now?

[kidlewis]

are the Beeb on the Draxis of evil list :-)

Even so, I'm sure dave will ensure this innovation / wasteful exuberance uing public funds will soon be curtailed. He knows who his real friends are.

he can certainly start with transport direct. Biggest pile of shite ever.

[PauloBarnesi]

I ve been away so apologies if posted previously

Ex-Treasury secretary Liam Byrne's note to his successor: there's no money left

Byrne left letter on desk for incoming minister David Laws

Poll: Good gag or sick joke?

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Paul Owen

guardian.co.uk, Monday 17 May 2010 15.17 BST

Article history

Former Treasury chief secretary Liam Byrne, who left a note for his successor, David Laws, saying: 'I'm afraid to tell you there's no money left.' Photograph: PA

The former chief secretary to the Treasury, Liam Byrne, has reignited criticism of Labour's stewardship of the economy with a note for his successor which said "there's no money left".

Byrne's note was discovered by David Laws, the Liberal Democrat MP who was appointed by the coalition government to succeed Byrne as No 2 at the Treasury.

It is a convention for outgoing ministers to leave a note for their successors with advice on how to settle into the job. But Byrne's note – which he later said was intended as a private joke – drew attention to Labour's economic record when it was revealed by Laws at a press conference today.

Laws told reporters: "When I arrived at my desk on the very first day as chief secretary, I found a letter from the previous chief secretary to give me some advice, I assumed, on how I conduct myself over the months ahead.

"Unfortunately, when I opened it, it was a one-sentence letter which simply said: 'Dear chief secretary, I'm afraid to tell you there's no money left,' which was honest but slightly less helpful advice than I had been expecting."

The letter recalls a similar note left by Tory Reginald Maudling to his Labour successor James Callaghan in 1964: "Good luck, old cock ... Sorry to leave it in such a mess."

Byrne said the message was meant in jest. "My letter was a joke, from one chief secretary to another," he said. "I do hope David Laws's sense of humour wasn't another casualty of the coalition deal."

Treasury sources said the full text of the letter from Byrne – dated 6 April, the day Gordon Brown called the general election – was: "Dear chief secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Kind regards – and good luck! Liam."

Byrne's notes have caused bemusement before. When he was promoted to the cabinet in 2008, he gave officials a set of instructions entitled Working with Liam Byrne, which included the lines: "Coffee/Lunch. I'm addicted to coffee. I like a cappuccino when I come in, an espresso at 3pm and soup at 12.30-1pm ... If I see things that are not of acceptable quality, I will blame you."

Gary Gibbon of Channel 4 News claimed today that former chancellor Alistair Darling had also left a note for his successor, George Osborne, as well as a bottle – but, in Gibbon's words, "no revolver".