Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #5 - Leaders Debate Two

[Guest Ricardomeister]

at least the council tax takes into account wealth in some way. I believe the wealthiest should alway be asked to help out those least able in our society. Thatcher (and the poll tax) did not think that. She thought the poor/less fortunate/less able should help themselves.

I cannot square with that philosophy, and the poll tax was a partial embodyment of that ethos.

Not that council tax is particularly "progressive" anyway...

A local income tax has to be the fairest way imo as the lucky and privileged should rightly have to pay more than those who have not had the same opportunities.

[TrentVilla]

It's as if the last 13 years haven't happened and Labour have not had a chance to "correct" anything that they and their supporters feel is unfair

Indeed... New Labour are the furthest right wing government the UK has had in many (more than four) decades.

Nonesense.

[drat01]

Spending cuts to be deepest since 1970s, IFS says

The UK faces the deepest spending cuts since the late 1970s if the three main parties are to meet their budget commitments, new analysis suggests.

The years between 2011 and 2015 must see the largest cuts since 1976-80, according to a report from the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS).

Its estimates suggest the Conservatives would need to make the biggest cuts.

Meanwhile a Labour government would see the biggest tax rises, the think tank predicts.

Based on commitments made so far, the Liberal Democrats would need to cut an accumulated £51bn from spending on public services by 2017.

Labour's plans would require a slightly smaller cut during that time of £47bn, the IFS said, while the Conservatives would cut by the largest amount - £57bn.

Tax rises expected

Conservative plans would "imply cuts to spending on public services that have not been delivered over any five-year period since the Second World War".

Tax increases would be highest under Labour, the analysis suggests, totalling £24bn over the course of the next parliament.

£17bn of these have already been announced, leaving £7bn unaccounted for.

But the IFS said Conservative plans to raise taxes by £14bn looked optimistic, given the party's commitment to scrap a rise in national insurance, and added that a further rise of £3.5bn would be necessary.

The Liberal Democrats' plans to raise taxes by £20bn matched the party's current budget plans, the IFS said, but it meant they would have to make the harshest cuts later on in the parliament.

In presenting the report, the IFS director, Robert Chote, criticised all three parties for failing to spell out their budget plans more clearly to voters.

"Given that this fiscal repair job is likely to be the major domestic policy challenge for the next government, it is striking how reticent all three main UK parties have been in explaining how they would confront the task," he said.

The IFS also said government borrowing over the next few years would be broadly similar for the three major parties.

Very interesting analysis

[kidlewis]

at least the council tax takes into account wealth in some way. I believe the wealthiest should alway be asked to help out those least able in our society. Thatcher (and the poll tax) did not think that. She thought the poor/less fortunate/less able should help themselves.

I cannot square with that philosophy, and the poll tax was a partial embodyment of that ethos.

Not that council tax is particularly "progressive" anyway...

A local income tax has to be the fairest way imo as the lucky and privileged should rightly have to pay more than those who have not had the same opportunities.

I agree a local tax system would be fair, but can you see any party agreeing to that? London would probably cease to be such a powerful city in the global economy as a result, but other areas of the country would prosper. A good thing for the country?

it's not quite black and white, but I wouldn't mind seeing certain places like Newcastle, Liverpool, Coventry and even places like Bury and Sheffield receive a lower business rates to encourage movement out of London.

Newcastle relies to heavily on public sector jobs and whoever wins the election, they are pretty screwed.

[drat01]

And Ken Clarke has just admitted that Osborne got it "wrong" on Northern Rock :-)

[tonyh29]

at least the council tax takes into account wealth in some way.

how does it do that ? it is measured against the size of the house and just assumes if you have a big house you are wealthy , which isn't always the case .. which is the same trap the libs Mansion tax has fallen into , isn't it ?

maybe it had a instances where it was unfair but it was never really given a chance to be ironed out ..which was why i asked if it was the policy or the person

[Jon]

It's as if the last 13 years haven't happened and Labour have not had a chance to "correct" anything that they and their supporters feel is unfair

Indeed... New Labour are the furthest right wing government the UK has had in many (more than four) decades.

Nonesense.

Indeed. To say that New Labour are more right wing than the Thatch govts of say 83-90 just borders on lunacy.

[drat01]

Interesting take on hung parliaments

Tory claims that hung parliament would cause meltdown are dismissed

Fears of an economic meltdown in the case of a hung parliament have been dismissed by a leading credit rating agency and senior economists.

Analysis by The Independent suggests that of the 16 countries worldwide who currently have the top triple-A financial stability rating, 10 are run by coalition governments. The majority of nations that have taken the toughest action in recent decades to tackle their debts were also governed at the time by coalitions.

David Cameron and George Osborne, the shadow Chancellor, have warned that a hung parliament would spark a sterling crisis and the intervention of the International Monetary Fund, which is helping to bail out the beleaguered Greek economy.

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But the Moody's ratings agency yesterday argued that such an election result could actually make it easier to push through the spending cuts essential to cut the deficit as a plan agreed by a coalition would have broad public support.

Arnaud Mares, its lead UK analyst, said: "A hung parliament does not in itself have direct implications for Moody's UK rating. The three main parties broadly agree on the desirability of fiscal consolidation on a scale that, if implemented strictly over the course of the next parliament, would be consistent with the Government maintaining its Moody's AAA rating."

Another ratings agency, Fitch, assessed Britain's prospects to be "stable", a view it said it had reached bearing in mind the possibility of a hung parliament.

The Standard and Poor's agency lowered its assessment to "negative" almost a year ago, when the Conservatives were in a strong opinion poll lead.

Sixteen countries currently enjoy a triple-A rating – awarded to nations deemed to have close to zero risk of defaulting on their debts – from the main credit ratings agencies. Ten, including Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Sweden and Switzerland, currently have coalition governments and 12 use a form of proportional representation for elections.

History also suggests that having large majorities in government does not prevent crises of sterling. The 1949 and 1967 devaluations both took place when Labour had a clear majority. In 1985 sterling fell to just over $1 when Margaret Thatcher had a landslide majority, while in 1992 the Tories had a working majority when Britain fell out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism.

In contrast, the last time there was cross-party co-operation in a hung parliament situation – the Lib-Lab pact of 1977-78 – it delivered lower inflation and lower unemployment, a recovery in the value of sterling and the IMF was paid off from the 1976 crisis. The deal saw through painful cuts to public spending.

The House of Commons library also discovered that seven of the toughest 10 "fiscal consolidations" – programmes of belt-tightening – in the Western world since 1970 were undertaken by coalition administrations.

The City is becoming accustomed to the idea that the election on 6 May will not deliver the decisive Conservative victory that it might have wished for. Consequently investors have already factored a hung parliament into their calculations.

The City research consultants Capital Economics yesterday said in a briefing note to investment houses that markets were "becoming rather less fearful of the prospect of a hung parliament". It said it had warned in February "some of the worst fears over a hung parliament might be overdone and there are signs that the markets are starting to come round to that view".

Jonathan Loynes, its chief Europe economist, said: "We are not suggesting that all worries about a hung parliament are completely misguided. We are at a precarious position and the finances are in a mess. Action must be taken to sort them out very quickly. But there is growing recognition among the parties that further action to address the fiscal problem is needed. The markets have taken heart from that in the past week."

Investment consultant Desmond O'Driscoll, of Lighthouse Financial Initiatives, said: "Whatever nasty medicine has got to be taken, it would be more acceptable coming from a consensus government."

James Caan, the entrepreneur who features in BBC2's Dragons Den, said: "The financial markets are anticipating a hung parliament, and it will come as no surprise to them. Now it is becoming increasingly likely they will be factoring this into their assessment of the economy and government borrowing."

Totally rubbishes the Tory scaremongering about hung parliaments and the rubbish about how it weakens economies. The key obviously is something that Tory party have shown time after time after time recently, in that for it to succeed parties have to work together

[tonyh29]

To be fair to Tony he didn't say it was popular. He just said that it epitomised fairness and equality. That doesn't necessarily equate to everybody liking it.

Thanks Mike but sadly he can't see beyond the end of his nose so I don't expect him to actually evaluate anything being said and offer anything constructive and reasoned to the debate at hand

[Jon]

..which was why i asked if it was the policy or the person

Policy, policy, policy.

You are soooooo far wide of the mark on this, for me Tone, that it's untrue.

It was just such an unfair tax, hitting hardest on those least able to pay.

It was regressive. It was right wing. It was distasteful, and thankfully it cost her her job.

the Council tax is not without its flaws, and some sort of local income tax may be a better way of doing things, but it is vastly superior to the Poll tax.

[Guest Ricardomeister]

To be fair to Tony he didn't say it was popular. He just said that it epitomised fairness and equality. That doesn't necessarily equate to everybody liking it.

Thanks Mike but sadly he can't see beyond the end of his nose so I don't expect him to actually evaluate anything being said and offer anything constructive and reasoned to the debate at hand

Oh so you were being serious? It is still hilarious so thanks again!

The reason that people like you think it "epitomised fairness and equality" is simply because you benefitted from it as all that you are interested in is your own pocket rather than whether it is fair to the whole of society.

The very simple reason that it was the most hated policy in my lifetime is very simply because the vast majority of the population could see that it was the epitomy of unfairness and inequality, but I would not expect you to realise this or offer anything consructive or reasoned to the debate in hand.

[Guest Ricardomeister]

It's as if the last 13 years haven't happened and Labour have not had a chance to "correct" anything that they and their supporters feel is unfair

Indeed... New Labour are the furthest right wing government the UK has had in many (more than four) decades.

Nonesense.

Indeed. To say that New Labour are more right wing than the Thatch govts of say 83-90 just borders on lunacy.

Hear, hear.

[tonyh29]

Policy, policy, policy.

far enough it was just the people behind the poll tax riots were a national body of unions set up by Militant Tendency, forerunners of today's Socialist Party ...

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Socialists love you.

[Guest Ricardomeister]

I fully agree with you Drat, the Tories' obsessive scaremongering on a hung parliament is totally laughable with little or no basis in fact. Although Labour are not totally innocent in this respect too, it is about time that all the party leaders were told firmly that they are supposed to govern for the benefit of the whole country, not just their own narrow interests and that means learning to compromise from time to time!

[Guest Ricardomeister]

Policy, policy, policy.

far enough it was just the people behind the poll tax riots were a national body of unions set up by Militant Tendency, forerunners of today's Socialist Party ...

although I know plenty of "normal" people in "normal" jobs with no political affiliations who went to demonstrate against the inequitable poll tax so to suggest that it was the doing of some militant organisation is quite patently ridiculous.

The main instigator of the riots that followed was Fuhrer Thatchler!

[LondonLax]

The key obviously is something that Tory party have shown time after time after time recently, in that for it to succeed parties have to work together

Aye, but that is the crux of it isn't it.

Can you see any two of these 3 groups agreeing on which departments will feel the brunt of the record spending cuts required?

I have a feeling they will be arguing for months over it.

Typically coalition governments occur when you have proportional voting and all parties in those systems are used to and indeed expect to have to compromise policies to get things done.

British politicians are not used to that at all, compromise would be tricky if times were good but will be extremely difficult when record cuts are required.

I predict some interesting times ahead.

[Gringo]

at least the council tax takes into account wealth in some way.

how does it do that ? it is measured against the size of the house and just assumes if you have a big house you are wealthy , which isn't always the case ..

Of course it is.

If you have a big house, you have a big valuable asset and are therefore wealthy.

Unless you're squatting in it

[Richard]

Policy, policy, policy.

far enough it was just the people behind the poll tax riots were a national body of unions set up by Militant Tendency, forerunners of today's Socialist Party ...

although I know plenty of "normal" people in "normal" jobs with no political affiliations who went to demonstrate against the inequitable poll tax so to suggest that it was the doing of some militant organisation is quite patently ridiculous.

The main instigator of the riots that followed was Fuhrer Thatchler!

Interesting as I thought it was policy not the person?

[LondonLax]

at least the council tax takes into account wealth in some way.

how does it do that ? it is measured against the size of the house and just assumes if you have a big house you are wealthy , which isn't always the case ..

Of course it is.

If you have a big house, you have a big valuable asset and are therefore wealthy.

Unless you're squatting in it

Or renting :?