The "Witton Lane" Boxing Chat Thread

[KHV]

3 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

yeah mike did go downhill a bit but is it any surprise as the guy was clearly a nutcase. i just think he would of smashed wlad and fury to bits with his speed and power. im happy for fury as i have seen a different side to the bloke and anyone whos a friend of jesus is a friend of mine 

 

9 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

At 5 ft 10, I'd imagine that Mike Tyson would have an extremely hard time getting inside on the likes of Wladimir and Tyson Fury, he's just too small. 

I actually find Mike to be pretty overrated, he never really beat anyone in his prime, it was either borderline bums, contenders who in the grand scheme of things were nothing more than solid (Razor Ruddock, Tucker, Bruno) and big names who were basically retired at the point of fighting him (Spinks and Holmes). After his stint in the clink he got his ass kicked by Holyfield and a few years after got flattened by Lennox Lewis. 

Basically I just think he'd be too small for the era of 'super' heavyweights. I agree that heavyweight boxing has sucked for a long time and is no where near as entertaining as it used to be, but the requirements now are very, very unique and the challenges are very different to yesteryear. Small guys just have little to no chance of getting beyond the long and highly authoritative jab that these very big guys have.

Mike struggled against big guys, I watched the buster Douglas fight again the other day, I actually forgot just how good Douglas fought that night. He used his strength height and reach really well. Until he went on his arse in the 8th he won rounds 2-7 convincingly and gave tyson some real punishment in the 9th before knocking him out in 10. Tyson barely laid a glove on him all the quick left hooks were blocked by Douglas having his right up by his ear. Tyson could not get close enough for the upper cut and only found one.He had the same issues against Lewis, he was too big also for tyson and dished out the biggest beating mike ever took, if you watch the Douglas and lewis fights against tyson again the number of times mike ate leather is unbelievable. Both klitschko brothers and fury are massive. A prime tyson would not have found it easy. If you got past round 4 with mike you were always in with a good chance of winning, mike tyson was always a quitter if it didn't go his way. That's why he bit holyfield and in the lewis fight he said he didn't want to come out of his corner before he got ko'd. I have always found tyson way over rated, holyfield wasn't bigger than him and gave him a real lesson in the first fight, a wild left hook and a vicious uppercut wad all he had in his locker. Not a great in my book anyway but always box office entertainment not always for the right reasons.

[Dr_Pangloss]

3 hours ago, The_Rev said:

Didn't stay up for the fight but I see DeGale had a wide points win over Lucian Bute in Canada.  Bute never did recover from his annihilation at the hands of Carl Froch, did he?

Just watched it. Bute was actually very good. His new trainer has worked wonders, this is the best he has looked for a long time. It was a close fight that I gave to DeGale by literally 2-3 points. Bute's Sunday punch is the left hook to the body, he worked that well and took some steam out of DeGale, but DeGale was the clear winner in a close and competitive fight.

DeGale really does annoy me. I'm one of his biggest advocates, I believe he's a special talent, in fact I think his talent is board-line elite for this sport. When he puts it together he is absolutely sensational. 

But I don't think he will full fill his potential, he is in desperate need of a new trainer. There are two things that will hold him back, both physical and mental. The physical aspect I see is that his stamina isn't great, he tends to get tired by around round 8 and gets extremely wild and open, he then tends to have to rely on getting a second wind late on, he needs to address this. The mental aspect is his uncanny ability to into cruise control when winning a fight, his output drops and he lets his opponents back in. The two issues are almost certainly linked. I think Freddie Roach would be a good trainer for him. DeGale likes to ambush his opponents, the type of style Roach preaches, but Roach will get him punching with more conviction and approaching fights in a more ruthless manner.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Dr_Pangloss

[KHV]

9 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Just watched it. Bute was actually very good. His new trainer has worked wonders, this is the best he has looked for a long time. It was a close fight that I gave to DeGale by literally 2-3 points. Bute's Sunday punch is the left hook to the body, he worked that well and took some steam out of DeGale, but DeGale was the clear winner in a close and competitive fight.

DeGale really does annoy me. I'm one of his biggest advocates, I believe he's a special talent, in fact I think his talent is board-line elite for this sport. When he puts it together he is absolutely sensational. 

But I don't think he will full fill his potential, he is in desperate need of a new trainer. There are two things that will hold him back, both physical and mental. The physical aspect I see is that his stamina isn't great, he tends to get tired by around round 8 and gets extremely wild and open, he then tends to have to rely on getting a second wind late on, he needs to address this. The mental aspect is his uncanny ability to into cruise control when winning a fight, his output drops and he lets his opponents back in. The two issues are almost certainly linked. I think Freddie Roach would be a good trainer for him. DeGale likes to ambush his opponents, the type of style Roach preaches, but Roach will get him punching with more conviction and approaching fights in a more ruthless manner.

Do you think chunky will fight jack next?

[Kingman]

I didn't care who won the Fury fight i just wanted to be entertained with a boxing exhibition by two heavy weights.

Instead we got a powder puff hug fest,  

Ive flicked my Mrs's bean harder! 

Edited November 29, 2015 by Kingman

[The_Rev]

Lucky her!

 

[Dr_Pangloss]

1 hour ago, KHV said:

Do you think chunky will fight jack next?

Seems quite likely, it's a great opportunity for Chunky to unify. I've underrated Jack in the past, he's very solid, basic and a tough night for a lot of that division but I'd fully expect Chunky to win and to at least score a knockdown in that one. 

[Kingman]

Whats a doll gotta do with this?..

[foreveryoung]

You mean Chucky chap

Anyway I can't wait for Joshua to put Fury on his arse. Maybe 2 years away still, but I think Fury would take this one, even if retired.

[YGabbana]

2 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: I think there are very good excuses for Wladimir's performance, and it's 100% down to Fury's tactics and boxing ability. 

If you watch Wlad's post fight interview, he talks about how he couldn't set the right hand because of Fury's head movement. He talks about how he struggled with the distance. Fury controlled the distance, and bossed the fight with his jab, amazingly, his jab proved to be much better than Klitschko's. Fury has one of the very best jabs in the entire sport of boxing. 

I said after the weigh in that Fury will go for speed and movement and that's exactly what he did, I also said that Wladimir has never really had to adjust in fights and probably can't, and that's exactly what happened, no plan B for Fury's movement and length. 

The only thing I wanted to see from Fury was more uppercuts and straight right hands, he was looping his right too much, shorter, straighter right hands would have landed. 

In round 11 I thought the knockout was there for Fury but he didn't want to press the issue too much as he had banked so many rounds, and Wladimir's power is so immense that it wasn't worth the risk. 

Fury is definitely not an 'awful' fighter by any stretch of the imagination, Fury is quality. I do however agree with you that the division sucks, and has done for a long time, but that's probably another discussion.

definitely agree that fury unsettled wlad and probably showed wlad for what he is, a very average fighter in terms of comparing him to the greats. in terms of fury he done well last night i admit but i just dont rate him at all and its an embarrassment to heavy weight boxing that hes world champion. wlad is so boring and has no style whatsoever and the fact that hes been top dog for so long tells you everything you need to know. i grew up watching some great heavy weights, my favourite being mike tyson. can you imagine them pair in with mike tyson? one thing about fury which i do like is that hes an entertainer and you need that in boxing.

Very average fighter? Hes 1 of the best heavyweights there has been, he doesnt get the credit he deserves simply because he barely fights in the states.

He couldnt deal with Furys style its a simple as that. The same way Paquaio had no answer for Floyd Mayweather either.

[Dr_Pangloss]

4 minutes ago, YGabbana said:

Very average fighter? Hes 1 of the best heavyweights there has been, he doesnt get the credit he deserves simply because he barely fights in the states.

He couldnt deal with Furys style its a simple as that. The same way Paquaio had no answer for Floyd Mayweather either.

Agreed, Wladimir IMO is a top 15 all time great heavyweight. He is unquestionably a first ballot boxing hall of famer. 

What Fury did last night ranks up there as one of the single greatest achievements in British boxing history. It practically makes him the best British heavyweight since Lennox Lewis. But whilst Lewis collected the belts against various opponents, he didn't exactly win them all off of a great champion (I'm not gonna count the Rahman rematch here).

For Fury to basically become the undisputed heavyweight champion by beating an all time great (who was not over the hill by any stretch of the imagination going into the fight) is an astonishing achievement. 

[The_Rev]

Wlad is also almost 40 (he won't fight again before his 40th birthday) and that is a huge factor. 

Maybe a 30 year old or a 35 year old Wlad beats fury but time waits for no man. Except Bernard Hopkins of course. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

20 minutes ago, The_Rev said:

Wlad is also almost 40 (he won't fight again before his 40th birthday) and that is a huge factor. 

Maybe a 30 year old or a 35 year old Wlad beats fury but time waits for no man. Except Bernard Hopkins of course. 

Yet he looked better than ever two fights ago against Pulev... In my opinion no version of Wlad beats Fury (bar having a punchers chance), he can't cope with the movement and Fury's ability to master distance. Fury exposed fundamental flaws that have always been there. 

A 30 year old Wlad was getting knocked down 3 times against Sam Peter, I genuinely believe that this is pretty much the best Wladimir has ever been. Yes his previous fight against Jennings was a stinker, but prior to that he destroyed Pulev and was destroying every one else in his path, looking more aggressive and throwing the left hook better than ever.

At the end of the day, styles make fights and Fury's style is not something Wlad will ever be comfortable with. The only thing I'd say is that maybe, with Manny Steward in his corner, he would have had a lot more urgency and would have been (slightly) more willing to throw caution to the wind...

Edited November 29, 2015 by Dr_Pangloss

[YGabbana]

20 minutes ago, The_Rev said: Wlad is also almost 40 (he won't fight again before his 40th birthday) and that is a huge factor. 

Maybe a 30 year old or a 35 year old Wlad beats fury but time waits for no man. Except Bernard Hopkins of course. 

Yet he looked better than ever two fights ago against Pulev... In my opinion no version of Wlad beats Fury (bar having a punchers chance), he can't cope with the movement and Fury's ability to master distance. Fury exposed fundamental flaws that have always been there. 

A 30 year old Wlad was getting knocked down 3 times against Sam Peter, I genuinely believe that this is pretty much the best Wladimir has ever been. Yes his previous fight against Jennings was a stinker, but prior to that he destroyed Pulev and was destroying every one else in his path, looking more aggressive and throwing the left hook better than ever.

At the end of the day, styles make fights and Fury's style is not something Wlad will ever be comfortable with. The only thing I'd say is that maybe, with Manny Steward in his corner, he would have had a lot more urgency and would have been (slightly) more willing to throw caution to the wind...

Agree with both posts.

It was such an easy fight for Fury aswell, his gameplan was spot on.

Id like to see wilder vs fury sometime in the future

[RichardCanning]

Great stuff to see a Brit on top of the world. Fully deserved, the team that Fury surrounded himself with sniffed out all Wlad's tricks and gave Tyson the best chance and he delivered perfectly.

I sense we will see a Wlad v Fury rematch and in the meantime may see Haye v Joshua for the right to fight Fury for the belts. What a great time for British Heavyweight boxing!

[KHV]

25 minutes ago, RichardCanning said:

Great stuff to see a Brit on top of the world. Fully deserved, the team that Fury surrounded himself with sniffed out all Wlad's tricks and gave Tyson the best chance and he delivered perfectly.

I sense we will see a Wlad v Fury rematch and in the meantime may see Haye v Joshua for the right to fight Fury for the belts. What a great time for British Heavyweight boxing!

I'm not convinced we will see the same David Haye, far from it. I think he may come unstuck in his comeback fight

[The_Rev]

Haye will win his comeback fight.  I can't see him touching Joshua with a bargepole though, he's got nothing to gain and everything to lose in that one.  If Fury is still holding the title this time next summer then I fully expect Haye to try and bypass everybody by talking shit about Fury at every possible opportunity.  If I were Fury then I might remember that Haye ducked him twice at the 11th hour with 'injuries' when they were due to meet and either freeze him out just to be spiteful or insist on a 75% cut of the purse if they do meet. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

Haye's style doesn't age well, explosive, ambush types don't tend to have the longevity of the more heavy handed guys with the better fundamentals (jab etc). Haye looks to circle on the outside and jump in with explosive punches, he's one hell of a puncher, but with advanced age, and given how long he has been on the shelf, I'd imagine that he will struggle to reach the openings that he used to be able to. 

I think he'll destroy his opponent, as this Aussie guy is a part timer, but he's a knockout waiting to happen. 

[KHV]

1 minute ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Haye's style doesn't age well, explosive, ambush types don't tend to have the longevity of the more heavy handed guys with the better fundamentals (jab etc). Haye looks to circle on the outside and jump in with explosive punches, he's one hell of a puncher, but with advanced age, and given how long he has been on the shelf, I'd imagine that he will struggle to reach the openings that he used to be able to. 

I think he'll destroy his opponent, as this Aussie guy is a part timer, but he's a knockout waiting to happen. 

He was one he'll of a puncher, one of the best for basically a cruiserweight. However time has passed, he is older, he is slower and he has had major shoulder surgery so I think he is a different animal now. An animal with his major weapons taken away. Haye had his moment and blew it sadly, I was a Haye fan but after the Klitschko debacle and his time away I would rather he didn't come back but I suppose he hasn't got many options being skint. 

[The_Rev]

The shoulder thing might be an issue but punching power is generally the last thing to go, it's speed and reflexes slowing down which will kill Haye at the top level. 

As for Mark de Mori, he's outside the world's top 100 on Boxrec, somehow he's top 10 by the WBA (mind you, you have to question whether the WBA know what they are doing as they moved a guy called Ali Raymi from 6th to 11th in their rankings earlier this year even though Raymi had died several months previously).   De Mori is obviously out of his depth against Haye, he has a good record (30-1) and a ranking which sounds good in two second sound bite on TV but he's getting sparked out in January. 

[Nabby]

I have always said the Klitchko's domination was helped by facing opponents smaller than them there's a reason he never went for Valuv for the WBA title ,instead leaving it for Haye to win.I knew Fury would cause him problems and was a legacy of 10 years never having to deal with a bigger guy.His style was style to try and jab and hold but got him no where ,only in the last round when he just went for it did he get close to Fury.He should of tried that sooner ,Fury is big but does not have explosive power ,Wlad needed to take a punch to get inside and he simply refused  to do that for too long.

There is a rematch clause  and as a champion for so long you have to belive Wlad is not going to want to go out with a loss but if he fights Fury again he needs to change his game plan , perhaps even his trainer.

The division as a whole is quite weak Joshua and Wilder and 2 who look good but neither has fraught tough fights yet or been hit.Wilder from his early days is known to be chinny and has been protected as he has rose up the ranks.What the pair do have his decent power and at this weight there is always a punchers chance.

Haye needs to get through his return fight before he can start talking of a title and his layoff combined with shoulder surgery leaves him an unknown quantity at moment .At moment his is remembered mostly for the poor performance against Vlad and pulling out of the Fury fights which is a shame as he was an excellent cruiser weight and at heightweight took the title from Valuv who was much larger than him.He will always have a punchers chance but his size against someone like Fury will always be an issue.