Petrov - can he play in a 4-4-2?

[Big_John_10]

One of the things people have said is about Stan fading later on in games. I don't know that I've really noticed this

Neither have I, however it seems that unless we dominate for 90 mins it's petrov's fault because of his shocking stamina.

[markavfc40]

And he never upsets MON either!

Whats that got to do with anything? I'd of thought the same applies for the vast majority of the squad.

Having said that an in the know poster on here as stated on a number of occasions that Mon and Petrov had a big falling out in the dressing room after the Stoke game towards the end of last season.

[sled]

Well, it would seem that there are those who keep a close watch on Petrov for signs of him tiring after about, shall we say, an hour is it?

And there are those who like Arsene Wenger see nothing of this.

I guess we all see or (don't see) things differently.

[sled]

And he never upsets MON either!

Whats that got to do with anything? I'd of thought the same applies for the vast majority of the squad.

Having said that an in the know poster on here as stated on a number of occasions that Mon and Petrov had a big falling out in the dressing room after the Stoke game towards the end of last season.

Sorry. No need to be so defensive. I thought I was stating a fact! I stand corrected! You see, one or two have suggested that NRC upset MON once. Had a little contretemps I believe.

[MrDuck]

Petrov is the best midfielder we have by a mile. For me, his name should go on the team sheet for every game, whatever the formation, as long as he is fit.

Indeed.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Maybe at home, but he should come off after 60 minutes when evidently he is nackered.

Away from home, I don't think anyone can argue 4-4-2 with Petrov in is the way forward, the sooner we go 4-5-1/4-3-3/4-2-3-1 the better.

I think you'll find there are plenty that disagree with such nonsense.

Here's a related question though, why is it that the people who think that 4-5-1 (or whichever way you want to call the one man upfront formation we sometimes have to play) is good also think that we sit back on small leads too much and why do you think that is? One wouldn't be a product of the other would it by any chance?

This is what infuriates me at times, we sit back which I DON'T MIND but we don't do it right. The difference between sitting back 4-4-2 and sitting back 4-5-1 is that you have that extra body in the midfield which means you can get tight to the midfielders but while also marking zonally the space in between the two strikers. Just look against Tottenham how much time their midfielders had in the second half because we didn't presst then. Bring someone on for example who presses their midfield and leave Petrov doing the zonal job and you can provide the pressure we put on in the first half but also with the security of a player in that space if they do play around us. Carew was useless second half so why not bring him on and go 4-5-1?

Also to the people who didn't see Petrov physically tire that's because it's that he changes his game so he doesn't, Look at the first half of matches, quick pressing we put on, like against City and Tottenham. Once we get to about 55 minutes/60 minutes, look how much we drop deep. That's because Petrov is tired and then marks zonally rather than going out to press his man because of tiredness leaving their midfielders with so much time and space to drive their team forward.

as for someone saying it's Petrov's partner, I find that laughable, we've yet been successful in a 4-4-2 for a consistant set of games with Petrov in a 4-4-2 and ANY PARTNER, Barry, Sidwell, Delph.

This is no word of a lie, honest, honest truth. Our captain this week pulled his hamstring and had to miss the game, he's tough tackling, he's neat on the ball without providing anything special but never gives it away, we thought we would struggle abit as we had a team who drew to a team we did beat 2-1 but hardly convincing. This kid came in CM, from training on the astroturf we all thought he was pretty average as he isn't brilliant on the ball but the amount of work he got through for the full 90 minutes was extra-ordinary and we won the game 8-2, our best performance all season. Some of us Villan supporting lads, well 3 of us named him Reo-Coker, and it got me thinking on the way back how similar it is so the situation we have currently at Villa and having that player who got around the pitch so well really helped us in breaking down attacks right from the midfield of the pitch and not just in our final 3rd.

Honest to God, that's a true story.

But going back to the 4-5-1, I still don't see how people can think it's bad. It stops people playing through us because we have the extra protection in midfield and forces teams to put crosses into the box and long balls something were brilliant at dealing with usually. I mean look how we coped last year in a 4-5-1 and for alot of those games we had Zat Knight at the back who excelled. Move him to a 4-4-2 and we conceded goals because he got moved out of his position by midfielders having freedom to come from midfield.

Away from home since we've played 4-5-1 we've beat

Arsenal, Everton, West Ham, Hull, Sunderland, Liverpool, Blues. (21 points from 7)

We've collected like 11 points from 13 games in a 4-4-2 away from home since we first started going with the 4-5-1 formation.

So there's 10 points more in 6 less games. There's stats that can be shown to help an arguement then there's stats that actually show things that matter. The fact is starting with a 4-5-1, we are way way way more successful away from home.

At home, the formation should be mixed around but against the bottom half teams, 4-5-1 isn't a problem nor against the top teams as long as we change things during the game, that's the problem.

[ED]

We were shit hot during December and January, we could have played 1 1 8 and we'd have won. It's not just down to formations, you could argue vs Everton, Hull and West Ham we were incredibly lucky to get anything as they were complete rearguard actions.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

We were shit hot during December and January, we could have played 1 1 8 and we'd have won. It's not just down to formations, you could argue vs Everton, Hull and West Ham we were incredibly lucky to get anything as they were complete rearguard actions.

The difference being that we didn't actually concede many chances, I can still remember those games, against Hull apart from the last minute drama, Hull didn't threaten Friedel at all, against West Ham, he had a shot straight at him late on but once again rarely chances, Everton was abit tighter and they hit the bar but even in that game, they only 2/3 clear goalscoring chances.

We didn't get much of the play in these matches but we reduced the amount of chances because the chances we did concede too mostly came from set-peices. In fact, both Everton goals were set-peices, Sunderland goal was a set peice away from home when we won 2-1. The only goal not conceded from a set-peice was Torres this year with an Injured Davies at the back, alongside Cuellar, Shorey and Beye! Clean sheets against Arsenal, West Ham, Blues, Hull.

So 4 goals conceded in those 7 matches, 3 set-peices.

You say these wins were when we were in shit hot form but it's when we went to 4-4-2 that form changed, it weren't as if we played 4-5-1, lost a couple and changed to 4-4-2 and carried on. We didn't lose in a 4-5-1. Look at the seasons.

Last year:

5 games in a 4-5-1 away from home - 15 points.

14 games in a 4-4-2 away from home - 17 points.

This year:

2 Games in a 4-5-1 - 6 points.

5 games in a 4-4-2 - 3 points.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

How many more excuses are we going to get through until we realise 4-5-1 is better away from home?

We've tried it this year and last year, both times successful, we've tried 4-4-2 this year and last year, both taimes a failure.

At the moment, our away form is like a company selling every peice of it's stock for full price using one market strategy while the other market strategy in other months only manages to sell 1/4 of all stock and yet people are arguing that the one selling just a 1/4 of it's stock is better....

[Chindie]

God the 451 debate again... It's not the be all and end all, the end. It has many flaws and inherently makes you more defensive and limited in play.

Besides, we've had Downing come in now, lets see how his presence effects things. We might get to put this debate to bed at last. Hell, we may even revert to 451 sometimes, everyone's happy.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

The fact is we will always score a goal or two away from home whatever formation, so the key is keeping clean sheets for us, 4 out of 7 in a 4-5-1. Our last clean sheet in a 4-4-2 away was Blackburn in February. That's the difference in my opinion, in a 4-5-1 although teams camped us back at times, teams never really looked like threatening even with Knight and Davies at the back for a number of these games. It also give our wingers more freedom on the break.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

It has many flaws and inherently makes you more defensive and limited in play.

4-4-2 against Good teams to me seems more defensive though as we never win the ball back anyway and therefore just get dominated in games against sides who pass the ball, especially in the last 30 minutes when we become even more tired. It makes us more solid defensively. If that's a flaw, shoot me. We work hard, we're better defensively, we concede less goals and are more solid and this is bad?

You say it has it's flaws of being too defensive, but I'd wager we've scored more goals away from home in this "defensive system" than we have in a 4-4-2...

[Chindie]

I can't say I care to be frank. We play 442, the manager wants to play 442, whatever you say about it he knows more than you, has access to more information than you, sees more of the players than you, and knows how he wishes to have this side play. Personally, I can see the use of 442, and I can see use the Petrov in it. We can't play counter attacking as our only hand for the rest of time, we need to start playing more flexibly to beat teams that sit back, 442 seems to be the answer the manager has found for it, it seems to be working now with a full complement of players.

That's all there is to it.

I think I'm feeling rather cynical tonight.

[briny_ear]

The main problem for the 4-5-1ers is that, when Agbonlahor and Carew are both fit and on form, you gotta play them both because they scare and often beat the shit out of defences.

Which one you gonna drop to go 4-5-1?

[DiegoD]

While i agree 4-5-1 is a good formation and away from home can we effective against stronger teams, all this talk about our defence being so much stronger in this formation while goals being scored is not effected is rubbish.

Last season we had a bloke call Martin Laursen, do u remember him? he was a great leader, an awesome defender, was our target man in set pieces and most of our great results in the 4-5-1 had him playing. Also Ashley Young and Gabby were in great form.

[tommo]

I left this comment on the 'Is Petrov overrated' thread a while back which nobody commented on because the conversation had ended lol!-

"In the first half v Hull I thought he was excellent, actually tracked back and attempted to make thoughtful passes. In the second he was invisible and watching him I noticed he was no longer making himself available for Milner when he should be commanding the game more, probably down to the fact that he has played 270 mins this week when there is already questions being asked about his stamina.

I don't think he's overrated which is what this group hints at. At times he shows himself to be our best player from a purely technical point of view. I think it is MONs inability or refusal to see his weaknesses and provide the right personnel around him so he can always play his natural game, and that lets Petrov down unfortunately and shifts the blame onto him unfairly. Petrov has never been and probably never will be at his age, a harrying midfield destroyer, he is a creative presence to keep things ticking over, and it's up to MON to spot what he doesn't bring to the team, and get someone else to do it (ie NRC), whilst keeping Petrov's qualities on the pitch."

So I echo your thoughts AVFC PoB. I think Petrov is a good player, but Lampard is a good player, Fabregas, and so is Carrick. It is proven however that these sides fail to play with the same intensity and defensive solidity when an Essien/Diaby/Fletcher figure is missing. They might win the majority of their games anyway but that's because they have shed loads of cash and have fantastic players. It is usual for a good side to have the best of both worlds. Liverpool had this last season with the Mascherano/Alonso/Gerrard combo producing great results, but they have now lost the creative factor and are struggling. So i'm not saying take out Petrov and add NRC, because while we would have extra bite, we would lose the player that keeps things ticking over. My answer with our current personnel would be

............NRC......Petrov

Young......Milner.......Downing

.........Gabby/Heskey/Carew

I seem to remember Chelsea building a great side with a 4-3-3 and two wingers

.......Makelele....Essien

Duff.....Lampard....Robben

..........Drogba

and Barcelona, again with two wingers, playing some of the best football ever

......Toure.....Hernandez

Messi.....Iniesta....Henry

...........Eto'o

So I don't buy the negativity argument. This system wins games, it has not failed with the Villa, and often the best teams play it. I'm not suggesting for one minute that I know more than MON, but he is set in his ways and has his own ideals, and that probably involves having a hard working 442 system. But he still needs to prove it can work, particularly away from home, where we are frequently being outplayed for long periods by poor sides, or it could hold us back. For me, the system I suggest for Villa is obvious and imo would bring us considerably more success on top of the good work MON has already done. But it's up to him at the end of the day and all we can do is debate.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

I can't say I care to be frank. We play 442, the manager wants to play 442, whatever you say about it he knows more than you, has access to more information than you, sees more of the players than you, and knows how he wishes to have this side play. Personally, I can see the use of 442, and I can see use the Petrov in it. We can't play counter attacking as our only hand for the rest of time, we need to start playing more flexibly to beat teams that sit back, 442 seems to be the answer the manager has found for it, it seems to be working now with a full complement of players.

That's all there is to it.

I think I'm feeling rather cynical tonight.

Maybe he should look at it more things then because West Ham 2-1 Villa - 4-4-2. Liverpool 5-0 Villa, Everton 1-1 Villa...... 4-4-2.

West Ham 0-1 Villa

Liverpool 1-3 Villa

Everton 2-3 Villa ..... 4-5-1.

Also Briny_ear, I'd care more about winning games, the fact is Carew hasn't had 1 good game away game all season makes it any easy decision. If both are on top form then I would go 4-4-2. But the last time both were brilliant at the same time must have bee 12+ months ago.

Tommo I agree, I don't think Petrov is a bad player it's just the way we use him that is the problem.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

While i agree 4-5-1 is a good formation and away from home can we effective against stronger teams, all this talk about our defence being so much stronger in this formation while goals being scored is not effected is rubbish.

Last season we had a bloke call Martin Laursen, do u remember him? he was a great leader, an awesome defender, was our target man in set pieces and most of our great results in the 4-5-1 had him playing. Also Ashley Young and Gabby were in great form.

Arsenal, Everton, West Ham - Laursen playing.

Hull, Sunderland, Liverpool, Blues - Laursen not playing.

So without Laursen in a 4-5-1, we still won 4 out of 4 and conceded just two goals, scoring 7.

[alienvillan]

... I don't think Petrov is a bad player it's just the way we use him that is the problem.

I think it's some of the posters having problems with Stan that is the problem.

[sled]

... I don't think Petrov is a bad player it's just the way we use him that is the problem.

I think it's some of the posters having problems with Stan that is the problem.

That's right. And when we win it's because some of the people on a message board say nice things and when we win it's because some people on a message board say horrid things.