Petrov - can he play in a 4-4-2?

[barry'sboots]

That bit in bold is rubbish, utter rubbish, look at the results for the last ten games with Laursen in the side then the first ten games with him missing. I know you'll find that the games before and after are all fairly comparable in terms of opposition / competition its just that .........we were statistically (and oh how we all seem to love them) a better side in terms of results without him, we also conceded less goals in those ten games. (marginally) But you can carry on making things up to suit your argument if you want. It doesn't actually make them true

And Everton playing 4-5-1 and finishing fourth is somehow relevant? Did they have our squad?

Hogwash, Laursen would have got us more wins in the slump period when we played 4-4-2, and you know that. I made a little mistake saying "Only worked" ofcourse that's impossible. I think my Everton comparison is valid, people like to draw comparisons to SAF's early Manchester United team when we're struggling, only fair if I can too. My point is Everton kept the system consistent, and in the end they qualified for the Champions League. And they had to deal with problems also, but they got the job done.

how can FACT be hogwash, go do the analysis, Laursen's last ten games and the first ten after he was injured, I've already done it, I know I'm right. Losing Laursen did nothing in terms of results, we were perfectly able to cope without him. Guess what though, ten games later the slump started, which iirc coincides with Curtis Davies first occurence of his shoulder injury and then we were down to the bare bones, we were playing a man at 75% and we suffered for it thereafter. Davies shoulder wasnt the only factor but it was certainly a major one but in reality it has little to do with formation and was more to do with the fact we had so few capable players left in the squad

Laursen was a quality player, we struggled without him during the slump period.

No Laursen issues this season. 4-5-1 played 3 won 3, even without Dunne, Collins and Warnock! 4-4-2 very different, especially away from home.

Everton have made 4-5-1 work for them repeatedly despite the fact that they do not have any genuine width, certainly before the signing of Billy the Russian. As a consequence their 4-5-1 is a very solid "break us down" if you can. Given we have three (four if you include Marc) very good wingers and good full backs I think ours is a much more flexible 4-5-1/4-3-3. And I certainly wouldn't be unhappy if we have 35% possession as in the Plop game but still win comfortably and deservedly and take the plaudits and points .... if it was almost good enough for Chelski in the CL against Barca last season it is good enough for me at the minute.

I think you could play it at home as well but instead of 4-2-3-1 you might go 4-1-4-1 and play Delph instead of Stan or NRC. A slight tweak but the same formation with a slightly more attacking intent?

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Petrov can play in a 4-4-2. Xavi and Iniesta cannot.

How is that one worked out?

[Big_John_10]

And I certainly wouldn't be unhappy if we have 35% possession as in the Plop game but still win comfortably and deservedly and take the plaudits and points

I think we'd struggle if we had to rely on own goals, corners and pens to get on the score sheet every game.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

but I can't help but feel had we kept the same team away from home as we started the season we might be in a better position this season and that's what fustrates me

And how do we know changing formations every home and away game wouldn't have had a negative effect on our home performances? Surely for formations to work well players need to be used to playing in that system, i don't see how swapping every week would help that.

I can see it, my Dad can see it, when I speak to mates who have watched the games they all say we should have made subsitution.

And i bet there are a section of fans who aren't screaming for a sub and if he made a sub and we let a goal in would be unhappy that he changed things when we were winning. He will never please everyone.

We swapped against Blues and won the game, As long as the players understand the formations, the way we play, I wouldn't see no worry involved. Sir Alex Ferguson changes the way his team plays every week, don't see it really effecting his team.

Anyway I'd stick with 4-2-3-1 pretty much every week, it can be very attacking and still gives us the platform to build off.

Well those section of fans not screaming for a sub surely must be blind? like I said, even if we made a sub and conceded that's not a problem because it was obvious we were going to concede without a sub so at least it's trying to change it. I'm not talking about games like Hull, Portsmouth were the opposition aren't doing much, I don't care if he makes a sub, I'm talking about the Tottenham game where we had 20% possesion in the second half and just kept on what we were doing, effectively nothing and also the Vienna game where they had 2/3 golden opportunities before they score and were opening us up. These situations.

[sled]

Ah, so posting for effect then...

Thanks for the cross:

Gooooaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllll.

I'm just glad you didn't find anything homophobically insulting about my post (memories of the Portsmouth reactions thread). Happy stirring Darren! :wink:

[HJ]

Anyway I'd stick with 4-2-3-1 pretty much every week, it can be very attacking and still gives us the platform to build off.

It can be, but the last time it actually was attacking for us was, uhm, Arsenal away on the back of the only great performance that Sidwell has played for us? We scraped a couple of 1-0 wins from own goals after that etc. We have played 4 games this season with 4-5-1 and barely created anything from open play in any of them. Solid, but struggling to conjure up situations that can lead to goals. Dropping Carew also means we are quite a bit weaker in set pieces.

Now it could all change when we can now play Milner in the middle in that formation so we have an actual player who can attack in the middle which is a must for me if we want long term success with the formation, but its all speculation until we actually play it and attack well.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Anyway I'd stick with 4-2-3-1 pretty much every week, it can be very attacking and still gives us the platform to build off.

It can be, but the last time it actually was attacking for us was, uhm, Arsenal away on the back of the only great performance that Sidwell has played for us? We scraped a couple of 1-0 wins from own goals after that etc. We have played 4 games this season with 4-5-1 and barely created anything from open play in any of them. Solid, but struggling to conjure up situations that can lead to goals. Dropping Carew also means we are quite a bit weaker in set pieces.

Now it could all change when we can now play Milner in the middle in that formation so we have an actual player who can attack in the middle which is a must for me if we want long term success with the formation, but its all speculation until we actually play it and attack well.

What about the games against Bolton, 4-2, the game against Arsenal where we battered them and drew 2-2 too. West Brom at home. Also this was playing in a geniune 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation with Sidwell and Barry as central midfielders and Petrov holding. I think having 2 more holding players and then Milner, Downing, Young in front of those two behind Agbonlahor would see us play some very exciting football.

Away from home, I don't really have to add much apart from it can only be an improvement on what we've done so far.

[HJ]

What about the games against Bolton, 4-2, the game against Arsenal where we battered them and drew 2-2 too. West Brom at home. Also this was playing in a geniune 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation with Sidwell and Barry as central midfielders and Petrov holding. I think having 2 more holding players and then Milner, Downing, Young in front of those two behind Agbonlahor would see us play some very exciting football.

Yeah I got the Arsenal home/away games mixed up, we were good in both as well as Bolton. Thats still a long while ago. Don't remember the WBA home game really.

We don't have Barry this season so it would have been NRC instead of him and that would make us quite a bit worse with the ball. We have been quite flat going forward with Sidwell/NRC/Petrov every time which would have been a problem for it if we had used it more. As I said Milner in the center there is an option now and I'd like to see it at some point, whether we will play exciting football remains to be seen.

Away from home, I don't really have to add much apart from it can only be an improvement on what we've done so far.

Oh it can be worse, we could play like we did in 4-5-1 home to Boro last season for example. We have had 1-1 draws and 1-2 defeats and that isn't good but we haven't been a million miles off more points, that would be what Hull was last weekend. Since Carew/Heskey have been so poor in many of those games we would have probably been better off with just a DM instead of them but I'm thinking like turning one of those draws to a 0-1 win while still not playing particularly well, like we often did last season.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

What about the games against Bolton, 4-2, the game against Arsenal where we battered them and drew 2-2 too. West Brom at home. Also this was playing in a geniune 4-5-1/4-3-3 formation with Sidwell and Barry as central midfielders and Petrov holding. I think having 2 more holding players and then Milner, Downing, Young in front of those two behind Agbonlahor would see us play some very exciting football.

Yeah I got the Arsenal home/away games mixed up, we were good in both as well as Bolton. Thats still a long while ago. Don't remember the WBA home game really.

We don't have Barry this season so it would have been NRC instead of him and that would make us quite a bit worse with the ball. We have been quite flat going forward with Sidwell/NRC/Petrov every time which would have been a problem for it if we had used it more. As I said Milner in the center there is an option now and I'd like to see it at some point, whether we will play exciting football remains to be seen.

Away from home, I don't really have to add much apart from it can only be an improvement on what we've done so far.

Oh it can be worse, we could play like we did in 4-5-1 home to Boro last season for example. We have had 1-1 draws and 1-2 defeats and that isn't good but we haven't been a million miles off more points, that would be what Hull was last weekend. Since Carew/Heskey have been so poor in many of those games we would have probably been better off with just a DM instead of them but I'm thinking like turning one of those draws to a 0-1 win while still not playing particularly well, like we often did last season.

Yeah it could be worse if we played like Boro at home but we haven't in 7 away games playing 4-5-1, in fact have I mentioned at all we've won all 7 Yes the results have been close but Burnley were woeful unti last 15 minutes. West Ham, decent first half, woeful second. Wolves, woeful performance, Blackburn lost too 10 men!, Everton, pretty bad throughout, decent first half spell.

None of the 5 performances we've put have been great and that's my sorta point about the whole thing, we don't play pretty football in the 4-5-1 at all away from home, but we also rarely ever concede goals, but what do I care more about? I care more about the points in the bag. We keep clean sheets in a 4-5-1, we don't in a 4-4-2 (away) that's been basically the difference. The extra protection for the back 4.

[snowychap]

Happy stirring Darren! :wink:

I don't think I was the one doing the stirring, Robert.

[HJ]

None of the 5 performances we've put have been great and that's my sorta point about the whole thing, we don't play pretty football in the 4-5-1 at all away from home, but we also rarely ever concede goals, but what do I care more about? I care more about the points in the bag. We keep clean sheets in a 4-5-1, we don't in a 4-4-2 (away) that's been basically the difference. The extra protection for the back 4.

I care more about points as well. Sidwell/NRC/Petrov didn't have the potential to get enough good attacking performances to get us points for top 4 which is why Carew has been up there. It hasn't worked either, and as I said probably worse than the 4-5-1 would have but that's largely because the other striker hasn't produced, second most important reason is general lack of quality in centre although Petrov is still the pick of the bunch for me. If Milner keeps going in his new position we have that quality in the middle.

The final aim is not to try to sneak results by shit on a stick football, but by trying to get us to attack as well as we did in 07/08 while having a sturdier defense.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

None of the 5 performances we've put have been great and that's my sorta point about the whole thing, we don't play pretty football in the 4-5-1 at all away from home, but we also rarely ever concede goals, but what do I care more about? I care more about the points in the bag. We keep clean sheets in a 4-5-1, we don't in a 4-4-2 (away) that's been basically the difference. The extra protection for the back 4.

I care more about points as well. Sidwell/NRC/Petrov didn't have the potential to get enough good attacking performances to get us points for top 4 which is why Carew has been up there. It hasn't worked either, and as I said probably worse than the 4-5-1 would have but that's largely because the other striker hasn't produced, second most important reason is general lack of quality in centre although Petrov is still the pick of the bunch for me. If Milner keeps going in his new position we have that quality in the middle.

The final aim is not to try to sneak results by shit on a stick football, but by trying to get us to attack as well as we did in 07/08 while having a sturdier defense.

Played with almost 3 central midfielders in the 07/08 season for large parts of the season. Obviously we don't want to sneak in playing shit football but ask Arsenal fans what they would, pretty football or titles at the moment? I'm sure the answer would be titles, we can play all our attacking, pretty football at home where we are actually good but we need to become solid away from home and play to our strengths on the counter IMO.

[HJ]

Played with almost 3 central midfielders in the 07/08 season for large parts of the season.

More importantly though 2 up front for most of the season.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Played with almost 3 central midfielders in the 07/08 season for large parts of the season.

More importantly though 2 up front for most of the season.

Yeah I meant, I felt it worked well at times because we had 3 in the centre, Coker, Petrov and Barry and Young wide out on the left, so meant we weren't over-run especially with Reo-Coker in there and Barry who in that season was arguably one of the best central midfielder to grace the Villa turf in the last whatever years. Sorta how Spurs are playing now with Kranjcar coming infield, we had that sorta thing going on.

[barry'sboots]

I thought we looked horribly balanced 07/08.

Of the people that played out there - mainly Petrov and Gardner from memory - none of them looked like a right midfielder and we always had an exposed right side (Mellberg was never gonna overlap) and Ash was very easy to mark as everything went through him. I think if we had bought someone like Gary O'Neill to play out there that season - as a stop gap - we would have been in 5th at least and probably challenging the top 4.

IMO, none of the players that we had could be compared to Krancjar who can actually play out wide but does drift in on occassion.

We seem to have an obsession with pretty football? Chelski didn't play it at times with their 4-5-1 but won games and titles. I would much rather take a scruffy three points at Plop than try and play pretty football and get stuffed 5-0, although, and I have to admit I didn't see it, despite the possession figures it is my understanding that we were the better side against Plop? Both the Fulham and Blues games this season we have looked better than the following 5 away games I think??

4-5-1 can work and can be very pretty, especially with our 3 amigos - you only have to look at Barca, Plop last season and now Arsenal - if you have the personnel to suit it and you are well set up. I think we do have the personnel and results have shown this.

[sting]

Petrov should be sold in January, as he will never be any good in any system. He is simply too slow and no longer has the stamina to play in our midfield. Oposing managers rub their hands with glee when they see him on our team sheet and when he plays in our team, you can drive as many JCBs through our midfield as you like. The only good thing is that the JCBs are leaving the cash machines alone!

[dappadan]

Petrov should be sold in January, as he will never be any good in any system. He is simply too slow and no longer has the stamina to play in our midfield. Oposing managers rub their hands with glee when they see him on our team sheet and when he plays in our team, you can drive as many JCBs through our midfield as you like. The only good thing is that the JCBs are leaving the cash machines alone!

Like the 16 out of the last 18 managers who have failed to beat us? The other 2 snuck in last minute winners......

[TheSufferingVilla]

you can drive as many JCBs through our midfield as you like. The only good thing is that the JCBs are leaving the cash machines alone!

:shock:

[granville]

Petrov should be sold in January, as he will never be any good in any system. He is simply too slow and no longer has the stamina to play in our midfield. Oposing managers rub their hands with glee when they see him on our team sheet and when he plays in our team, you can drive as many JCBs through our midfield as you like. The only good thing is that the JCBs are leaving the cash machines alone!

Good to see you're a man of your word and won't ever post here again sting.

Saying something that you know is not true?! Why, that would make you a li... Never mind. I'm sure you've heard it all before.

Anyway, how exactly do you know what "Oposing managers" do when they see our team sheet? I think they wet themselves and cower in the corner of the room shaking, but my guess is as unfounded and therefore useless as your's.

[Edinburgh-Villa]

Petrov should be sold in January, as he will never be any good in any system. He is simply too slow and no longer has the stamina to play in our midfield. Oposing managers rub their hands with glee when they see him on our team sheet and when he plays in our team, you can drive as many JCBs through our midfield as you like. The only good thing is that the JCBs are leaving the cash machines alone!

lol sting