snowychap Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Rather interested by Beaker's comments on Newsnight at the moment talking about the spending plans set out in the autumn statement for 2015/16 and 2016/17. It hadn't particularly occurred to me earlier but here we have a coalition government (borne, apparently, just out of necessity) talking about government spending plans and commitments in the first two years of the next parliament giving the impression that the two different parties are going to be standing on precisely the same economic ticket at the next election. Perhaps it may be more (or that might just be for some of the more useful ones). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 When they weren't inviting her to Downing Street , didn't Labour keep on blaming Thatcher right up until at least 2009 ? Yes and still to this day - Thatcher Thatcher the Milk snatcher. Don't suppose it would surprise you to know that you are wrong and that it was actually Ted Heath, but don't let facts get in the way of your posts No, not Heath. The cut was proposed by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, as is usual. Thatcher at first wasn't keen, fearing political opposition. Her concern was to minimise opposition - so on school meals, for example, she was content to make the cuts, but wanted to do so in fewer but bigger chunks to reduce the number of times opposition would be stirred up. By the time of the final decision, she was actually offering up more cuts than had been asked for. Shortly after election, Prime Minister Heath wrote to his cabinet, telling them: "We shall need determination and a willingness among spending ministers to accept reductions in programmes which, from a departmental stand point, they would be reluctant to make." And in August 1970, the new Secretary of State for Education responded to a Treasury demand for education cuts in four areas: Further Education fees Library book borrowing charges School meal charges Free school milk In principle, the minister who became known for her public-spending cutting zeal once she took power in 1979, appeared concerned at what the public perception of the cuts would be. Responding to the demands to end free school milk, Mrs Thatcher said: "I think that the complete withdrawal of free milk for our school children would be too drastic a step and would arouse more widespread public antagonism than the saving justifies." She proposed the compromise, later accepted, that milk would only be available to pupils in nursery and primary schools... ...Despite these reservations, the minister did support increasing charges for school meals - but in a carefully managed way to avoid public protest. "I think that we should proceed by fewer and larger steps so as to reduce the occasions for the inevitable recurrence of criticism whenever an increase is made in school meal charges," she wrote... ...By the Cabinet meeting of September 15, Mrs Thatcher appeared to be more enthusiastic about cuts to her department's bill. "The Secretary of State for Education and Science said that she had been able to offer the Chief Secretary, Treasury, rather larger savings than he had sought on school meals, school milk, further education and library charges," the minutes reveal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Wasn't it actually Harold Wilson who started the milk cuts? Luckily for him his surname didn't rhyme with snatcher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAFC2000 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Wasn't it actually Harold Wilson who started the milk cuts? Luckily for him his surname didn't rhyme with snatcher. You need one of these Calvin. http://www.etsy.com/listing/53622071/maggie-thatcher-milk-snatcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 http://www.etsy.com/listing/53622071/maggie-thatcher-milk-snatcher That's dreadful. Hyphenate between syllables! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 No, not Heath. The cut was proposed by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, as is usual. Ah my bad... Was sure i read something that got declassified under the 30 year rule that said Heath made Thatch do it based on advice he got from Iain Macleod ... I thought she had campaigned to keep the open university program labour had introduced and ultimately Heath made it a choice of cutting one or the other ... Risso is correct though the previous Labour govt had already started th free milk removal program... Just thought I'd get that in to keep Ian happy :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAFC2000 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 T=shirt..?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 No, not Heath. The cut was proposed by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, as is usual. Ah my bad... Was sure i read something that got declassified under the 30 year rule that said Heath made Thatch do it based on advice he got from Iain Macleod ... I thought she had campaigned to keep the open university program labour had introduced and ultimately Heath made it a choice of cutting one or the other ... Risso is correct though the previous Labour govt had already started th free milk removal program... Just thought I'd get that in to keep Ian happy :-) You have to smile at the way Tory supporters try and rewrite history, especially when Thatcher is mentioned. Cameron does it all of the time, but again facts do have a habit of making them look somewhat silly. It's interesting also how the Tory party are trying to make this some sort of Public vs Private sector battle now, again showing how their idealogical led attacks are happening. The two are not single entities and comparisons between pensions especially are like comparing apples with basketballs. But the spin put out to try and get support for the attacks this Tory Gvmt are making on those they see as their opponents, i.e. unions, women, lower paid, people who work in what is classified as the "public sector" etc, tries to make it out as the cause of the financial mess the world faces are not the financial world (who a lot conveniently still contribute to Tory party funds) but the man-in-the-street. It's also interesting how workers rights are being massively eroded, again in ideologically led attacks. How much longer before stronger calls for banning strikes are made from within more in the Tory party. When in opposition the Tory party often used to bang a drum about civil liberties, funny how once in power the liberties of a working person and those unfortunate to be out of work are conveniently ignored or attacked. What Osborne and co. have put in place recently (aided by the Lib Dems much to their shame) are nothing more than disgusting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Roughly 1 million public sector jobs were 'created' between 1997 - 2007. Pension provision however was not reformed. Can the government afford the financial liability of public sector pensions in their current form? I woud suggest not, but if they can I'd be interested to hear 'how' (preferably without the use of cliches about 'ideological attacks' or fascinating discussions about school milk..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Ed balls was on five live this morning trying to bash the tories around but offered NO alternative to the current proposals, as usual. he's such a tool. I would like him to come up with what plan he would have put forward instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Ed balls was on five live this morning trying to bash the tories around but offered NO alternative to the current proposals, as usual. he's such a tool. I would like him to come up with what plan he would have put forward instead. His plan was simple (and disagreed with the course laid out by A Darling before the last election, itself very similar to Osborne's plan): Borrow lots more and invest in growth. Very sensible on the surface until you remember that the money has to be borrowed from foreign investors. As the borrowing costs of the Eurozone periphary demonstrate, without a clear and loudly communicated plan to reduce deficits through spending cuts and tax rises, the cost of getting credit becomes so high that it's economically impossible to manage. Then bailouts are required or countries go bust and default. Sarkosy made clear before the eurozone really tanked that if UKPlc got into the financial poo then they wouldn't be coming to our rescue. Therefore our only option woud be the IMF and their usual prescription of 25% + public spending cuts across the board - far worse than the current situation. There is no magic bullet to fix this and we're in for a long period of economic misery, but Ball's plan would have screwed the country completely, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Ed balls was on five live this morning trying to bash the tories around but offered NO alternative to the current proposals, as usual. he's such a tool. I would like him to come up with what plan he would have put forward instead. His plan was simple (and disagreed with the course laid out by A Darling before the last election, itself very similar to Osborne's plan): Borrow lots more and invest in growth. Very sensible on the surface until you remember that the money has to be borrowed from foreign investors. As the borrowing costs of the Eurozone periphary demonstrate, without a clear and loudly communicated plan to reduce deficits through spending cuts and tax rises, the cost of getting credit becomes so high that it's economically impossible to manage. Then bailouts are required or countries go bust and default. Sarkosy made clear before the eurozone really tanked that if UKPlc got into the financial poo then they wouldn't be coming to our rescue. Therefore our only option woud be the IMF and their usual prescription of 25% + public spending cuts across the board - far worse than the current situation. There is no magic bullet to fix this and we're in for a long period of economic misery, but Ball's plan would have screwed the country completely, imo. as much as I didn't like Gordy Brown, Balls makes gord and even Darling look like the greatest financial manager of all time. Balls is pitbull in the house but a thicktool when it comes to policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 ...His plan was simple (and disagreed with the course laid out by A Darling before the last election, itself very similar to Osborne's plan): Borrow lots more and invest in growth. Very sensible on the surface until you remember that the money has to be borrowed from foreign investors... Was the £275bn of QE borrowed from foreign investors? Or was it just created? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 ...His plan was simple (and disagreed with the course laid out by A Darling before the last election, itself very similar to Osborne's plan): Borrow lots more and invest in growth. Very sensible on the surface until you remember that the money has to be borrowed from foreign investors... Was the £275bn of QE borrowed from foreign investors? Or was it just created? 'Printing' works to a point - and helps when you control your own national currency - but how far can you go without thoroughly debasing that unit of value? At that critical stage inflation goes wild with all its attendant problems and you end up in the same place, i.e. f*cked. Precisely the reason Germany won't sanction the ECB to create enough Euros to buy up the soveriegn debt of Greece, Italy, Portugal etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 didn't Roberto Mugabez try that a while back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Fair play to those that didn't go out on strike today heard that management at Gatwick have been manning the immigration desk as they were determined not to let the public down and that the strikers wouldn't win .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 didn't Roberto Mugabez try that a while back? Try what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 didn't Roberto Mugabez try that a while back? Try what? Quantative easing on a grand scale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 didn't Roberto Mugabez try that a while back? Try what? Quantative easing on a grand scale I don't think so. I think Zimbabwe ended up chasing their tale after losing close to half of the productive base of their home economy (amongst other things). I'm not defending QE just suggesting that the parallels automatically drawn with Zimbabwe, Germany in the '30s and so on are not perhaps the best starting point for a critique of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted November 30, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted November 30, 2011 Fair play to those that didn't go out on strike today heard that management at Gatwick have been manning the immigration desk as they were determined not to let the public down and that the strikers wouldn't win .. :shock: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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