Risso Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Mart - yes the finance sector grew and yes there were mistakes, but as per many previous discussions the blame was not solely down to the last Gvmt and despite what many said neither were the problems facing the world economy. The point is now when a Gvmt has been elected on promises of changing the way that the finance sector works, and then we see that many of it's financial backers are from the sector, is it any real surprise that the claims were nothing more than a sound bite to gain votes? This Gvmt have little / no incentive to regulate the finance sector, have little / no incentive to change the ideology that this man was a perfect example of and is seen in quite a few others in that industry. You say he isn't a "proper" one as though that really is an excuse. The reality is that his views are echoed across sufficient within that sector for them have a major effect on the man in the street is the key point. His views are perfect examples of what many seem to have and do. The impression is that your defence of saying that is not what happens is because he isn't employed as a trader for a large company. You may have answered it but I can't remember seeing it but what about the stance that his views are a perfect example of what many in the industry think and how they act. There seem to be many well connected people in the media who think that his views are clear reflections. The trouble is, the genie is well and truly out of the bottle where the finance sector is concerned, and while the phrase "too big too fail" is a trite one, it's no less true for it. It's like inventing the atom bomb, you can't do undo it afterwards, and as a country we're stuck with a sector that employs soo many people, that we cannot just scrap it and start again. And not to do the trader thing to death, but why didn't the BBC just interview a proper one instead of getting some attention whore who thought it would be fun to pretend to reprise the Gordon gecko character on national TV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 BBC asked me to go on and speak reminds me now ..didn't they interview a taxi driver once mistaking him for an IT expert :-) I wonder if Ian and Peter think that his views are now the views of all IT experts :confused: Oh Tony - he was not asked to go and speak. You really should be part of the Tory party spin machine :-) - bloody good attempt at deflection though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Oh Tony - he was not asked to go and speak. did you read it before quoting it :winkold: I actually said " didn't they interview a taxi driver once mistaking him for an IT expert" .. and as it turns out they did .. he was there for a job interview and ended up live on air being asked 3 questions about Apple remind me not to drive fast past you on the motorway you probably wont be able to see me properly :winkold: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 This guy from the BBC report is really a pointless ‘debate’. Even if he was a fully fledged successful trader and had despicable views what would that tell you besides the obvious point that this one guy is not a very nice person? Most of my friends in London work in finance or insurance, companies like RBS, UBS, JP Morgan, a private hedge fund, AON etc. They have a range of views from very left wing to very right wing. I personally work for the government in an engineering role and guess what? Most of my colleagues have a range of views from left wing to very right wing. People are people. Trying to say that people who do X job are bad and evil whilst people who do Y job are hard working and virtuous is just silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 The trouble is, the genie is well and truly out of the bottle where the finance sector is concerned, and while the phrase "too big too fail" is a trite one, it's no less true for it. It's like inventing the atom bomb, you can't do undo it afterwards, and as a country we're stuck with a sector that employs soo many people, that we cannot just scrap it and start again. And not to do the trader thing to death, but why didn't the BBC just interview a proper one instead of getting some attention whore who thought it would be fun to pretend to reprise the Gordon gecko character on national TV? I am not sure that many are saying we should abandon the finance sector though, because the reality is because of the abandonment of other industries by a certain woman PM previously and subsequently followed, we have little else to provide major wealth to this country. The reality is though that like when she started a lot of this we saw a massive greed culture. Remember the Harry enfield loads-a-money character? That culture has never really changed in some but the stakes they are playing for now are a lot higher in the impact that it has for the man in the street. As has been pointed out, the finance sector seemingly does this with little or no social conscience and the man used by the BBC was a perfect example of what many see, and arguably what happens in that sector. As for the BBC, like all areas in the media they are led by who they see as experts. FFS Sky have Adam Boulton as their political expert. The issue is here that some are seemingly trying to dismiss the bigger picture of what happens on the credibility of this one man rather than commenting on the practices of what was talked about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Oh Tony - he was not asked to go and speak. did you read it before quoting it :winkold: I actually said " didn't they interview a taxi driver once mistaking him for an IT expert" .. and as it turns out they did .. he was there for a job interview and ended up live on air being asked 3 questions about Apple remind me not to drive fast past you on the motorway you probably wont be able to see me properly :winkold: I think you are having your own little argument in your head again. The "trader" was asked to speak, the "taxi driver" was not. You seem to want to compare the two instances as being the same in terms of credibility of the person. :-) - I wish you two would keep up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Under Blair and Brown, the finance sector grew, and the manufacturing sector's level of importance shrank at far greater rates than anything under Thatcher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Under Blair and Brown, the finance sector grew, and the manufacturing sector's level of importance shrank at far greater rates than anything under Thatcher. Martin, yes the finance sector grew and yes manufacturing stagnated / shrunk. But as many have said this was a process that started under Thatcher. It was a juggernaut that could not be stopped. As discussed many times, selling the family silver was a one off thing Your statement reads as though Thatcher and the whole ideal that her and Regan imposed on the world never happened. Is Thatcher now someone that the Tory party followers and those in finance never admit to happening? :-) Reality of all of this is that 15 months into this abortion of a Gvmt we are now in a worse situation with little in the way of alternatives and nothing at all in the way of short - medium - long term growth. The job losses show that, the levels of inflation show that, the confidence in growth predictions show that. Plan A has failed and failed miserably. Gideon only has Plan A because that protects the minority he needs to feed. I suppose he may also have a Plan AC/DC but he keeps that private and quiet :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 A worse situation than what? 15 months into the governent, what percentage of the total unemployed have lost their jobs as a result of this government compared to the last? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Martin, yes the finance sector grew and yes manufacturing stagnated / shrunk. But as many have said this was a process that started under Thatcher. It was a juggernaut that could not be stopped. As discussed many times, selling the family silver was a one off thing That's true...... but it's also true that Blair and Brown deliberately allowed the UK financial services sector to become their family pet, which once out of control turned round and bit them firmly on the bum! We're now left with much of the wealth being darn Souff and t'up North it's a wee bit grim! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 A worse situation than what? 15 months into the governent, what percentage of the total unemployed have lost their jobs as a result of this government compared to the last? You are kidding me aren't you? In the IOM do you not get any news regarding unemployment in the UK? Do you not get any news about the record levels of youth unemployment? Do you not get any news about mass lay off's from the public sector and the lack of private sector vacancies? Do you not get any news about the inflation rates and how they are rising? Please do not tell me you are trying to claim that this Gvmt are in some way an economic success and have fulfilled the empty promises they were elected on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 We're now left with much of the wealth being darn Souff and t'up North it's a wee bit grim! Julie I live "upt North" and very close to an area that is often attacked by this Gvmt in terms of cutbacks - see the way they stopped Sheffield Forgemasters to help one of their biggest backers in Sheffield The problem is this Gvmt are still encouraging and embracing the same finance sector they tried to claim they would control. There is little / no evidence that they want to do anything other than pander to them and while many criticised the last Gvmt, this one you could argue is going further because at a time when the world has woken up to the financial issues and is ready to address them, we are seemingly burying our heads in the sand and allowing them to continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 A worse situation than what? 15 months into the governent, what percentage of the total unemployed have lost their jobs as a result of this government compared to the last? You are kidding me aren't you? In the IOM do you not get any news regarding unemployment in the UK? Do you not get any news about the record levels of youth unemployment? Do you not get any news about mass lay off's from the public sector and the lack of private sector vacancies? Do you not get any news about the inflation rates and how they are rising? Please do not tell me you are trying to claim that this Gvmt are in some way an economic success and have fulfilled the empty promises they were elected on. I don't think anybody would claim to be an economic success, as there aren't many of those around in Europe right now. But then, the last government made such an almighty mess of things that putting it right was never going to be easy. But anyway, please answer the question. How does the jobless figure compare now to pre-election levels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I don't think anybody would claim to be an economic success, as there aren't many of those around in Europe right now. But then, the last government made such an almighty mess of things that putting it right was never going to be easy. But anyway, please answer the question. How does the jobless figure compare now to pre-election levels? :-) - amazing. As said before the first line of defence for this Gvmt's supporters is to mention Labour whatever vague reason behind it. Amazing also how so many of this Gvm't supporters were ignoring it being a world / Europe issue previously and now it is :-) i know exactly where you are trying to go re the jobless figures and your argument is flawed (and straight out of Tory party HQ I may add). You will next try and claim again that there is no unemployment problem? We are supposedly out of recession and the jobless figures are still rising. Youth unemployment is now standing at just under 1 million. UK unemployment rose by 80,000 in the three months to July this year to 2.51 million, worst affected areas are those outside of the South East. etc etc - the impact of the Gvmt cuts and the VAT rises now are starting to hit! So carry on claiming that this Gvmt does not have an issue with unemployment the reality is that is does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Julie I live "upt North" and very close to an area that is often attacked by this Gvmt in terms of cutbacks - see the way they stopped Sheffield Forgemasters to help one of their biggest backers in Sheffield Haven't Forgemasters recently decided it wasn't such a good idea after all, and have now applied to the Regional Growth Fund for a new development loan but not for the press that the original loan was intended for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Julie I live "upt North" and very close to an area that is often attacked by this Gvmt in terms of cutbacks - see the way they stopped Sheffield Forgemasters to help one of their biggest backers in Sheffield Haven't Forgemasters recently decided it wasn't such a good idea after all, and have now applied to the Regional Growth Fund for a new development loan but not for the press that the original loan was intended for? :-) - amazing. No - Forgemaster's had no option after being shafted by this Gvmt (and not surprisingly after a major Tory party donor objected to the loan). They had no option but to look for other ways of continuing. The original plan was a ground breaking one, one that would have put at the forefront of that part of their sector. That boat has now sailed and they need to protect their company and workforce. link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 30, 2011 Moderator Share Posted September 30, 2011 This guy from the BBC report is really a pointless ‘debate’. Even if he was a fully fledged successful trader and had despicable views what would that tell you besides the obvious point that this one guy is not a very nice person? ... Trying to say that people who do X job are bad and evil whilst people who do Y job are hard working and virtuous is just silly. Well said. Telly is always getting non-experts on to fill time and create stories or debates. The standard of journalism and interviewing is mostly abysmal. And you're quite right that what one worker from whatever part of the economy says can't be relied upon to represent the consensus of that whole sector's views. Particularly if he's an attention seeking clown. However, when you observe the behaviour and listen to various words, then you start to get more of an idea. It's very easy and hard to resist portraying various industries in a particular light - e.g. "the defence industry (and therefore everyone in it) is Evil", or "Bankers are all greedy" or "MP's are all crooked" or whatever. It's utter rubbish, of course, but it just seems like fun, almost to say. Sadly it then seems to become the accepted view, and before you know it, people are thinking of ways to "punish" them, and how severely. And any evidence that runs against the grain of this weight of bigoted opinion is just ignored as it's inconvenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 see the way they stopped Sheffield Forgemasters because the Lib Dems are opposed to Nuclear Power fixed but The proposed forging capacity wasn't t required if you used Candu reactors. (China just constructed two this way) it's EDF who will be deciding who gets what orders , Forgemasters have no guarantee that they would win any orders and if it was such a good deal then it could have been financed elsewhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I don't think anybody would claim to be an economic success, as there aren't many of those around in Europe right now. But then, the last government made such an almighty mess of things that putting it right was never going to be easy. But anyway, please answer the question. How does the jobless figure compare now to pre-election levels? So you can excuse the current government for not being an economic success because "there aren't many of those around right now" but then go on to crucify the last government, despite the same excuse also being there for them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I don't think anybody would claim to be an economic success, as there aren't many of those around in Europe right now. But then, the last government made such an almighty mess of things that putting it right was never going to be easy. But anyway, please answer the question. How does the jobless figure compare now to pre-election levels? So you can excuse the current government for not being an economic success because "there aren't many of those around right now" but then go on to crucify the last government, despite the same excuse also being there for them? No. The last government created the conditions whereby the banking sector in the UK grew to be the biggest in the world. It's a global problem, but we played one of the to biggest parts in that along with the US. We had 5 of the top 10 biggest banks in the world under Labour, including the very biggest. Labour created a monster that promoted a false feeling of wealth for the nation, and now everybody is paying for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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