Team shape, tactics and personnel

[DJBOB]

Force us to the right. Pin us against the sideline and kill our progression. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by DJBOB

[TomC]

2 hours ago, DJBOB said:

Force us to the right. Pin us against the sideline and kill our progression. 

The kept boxing us into that right corner and the diagram shows it.

 

[TRO]

4 hours ago, villan95 said:

It's infuriating that we didn't heed the warnings like the disallowed goal. Just kept playing the same way waiting for the inevitable.

It was the same in the cup last season, when we lost 4-2.....almost the same happened, after we beat them 3-1 at home the previous week.

so the question is....."what are we learning about Uniteds long diagonal balls over the top"

may I suggest, sod all.

[DJBOB]

Taking the wrong lessons from the match if you’re thinking of the high line, which was executed to perfection in the first half and left United disjointed. 
 
Again, we were not undone by long balls or the high line. In every United goal, the inability to play out of the press led to mistakes, 50/50 losses in the middle of the park, or a poor build out from the back. 
 
It happened Newcastle away, Liverpool away, Bournemouth away, and now United away. 
 
Our inability to stay composed is part personnel, part tactical (wrong players in wrong positions), and part Unai dogmatism.

To expect to be able to play out with a right side triangles of Diego, Dendoncker, Konsa and Bailey is foolish. McGinn did his best to alleviate the press in the first half but he tired in the second as United relentlessly pushed us right and squeezed their way into goals. 

[May-Z]

Pau, Tielemans, and Kamara all missing took a huge chunk out of our passing ability through midfield. There's probably only Konsa and Luiz who started who are as reliable as those three.

As @DJBOB said, United prospered because of us giving them the ball back so regularly and then having no impact with the challenges/press. 

United actually played some really good football at times to their credit, but it was often after we had given them the ball back cheaply. We were never going to stop their momentum by doing that. 

[DJBOB]

In general, the same perseverance of thought from Legia away exists now. 
 
We have a very strong XI and maybe 12th and 13th. 
 
But when have to start playing players 14-17, the quality drop off is noticeable and I respect Unai for trying to play the same way as it would be somewhat foolish to throw away everything from the training ground because Dendoncker is playing. 
 
But he really should have had a Plan B with the lesser players out there. 

[DJBOB]

This guy is usually just a troll trying to generate clicks but he is exactly right that United changed their press, forced us to one side and squeezed us. 
 

 

[TRO]

3 hours ago, DJBOB said:

In general, the same perseverance of thought from Legia away exists now. 
 
We have a very strong XI and maybe 12th and 13th. 
 
But when have to start playing players 14-17, the quality drop off is noticeable and I respect Unai for trying to play the same way as it would be somewhat foolish to throw away everything from the training ground because Dendoncker is playing. 
 
But he really should have had a Plan B with the lesser players out there. 

I don't think he has the personnel for a plan B.......and I think that is an issue for him....albeit, he has improved the situation.

This squad, is still very much previous managers purchases.....His impact, has been predominantly coaching them, and a great job he has done too.

I am still waiting to see a few of his additions, in area's I feel will help him, change games.

I still feel we have too many players, who are like for like changes, and not so much diversity, and as others have said, not enough quality outside of the first 11.

Edited December 27, 2023 by TRO

[andym]

3 hours ago, DJBOB said:

In general, the same perseverance of thought from Legia away exists now. 
 
We have a very strong XI and maybe 12th and 13th. 
 
But when have to start playing players 14-17, the quality drop off is noticeable and I respect Unai for trying to play the same way as it would be somewhat foolish to throw away everything from the training ground because Dendoncker is playing. 
 
But he really should have had a Plan B with the lesser players out there. 

I think that's the case with all of the top managers like Pep, Klopp etc - they have their principles, and although there can be tweaks here and there, they stick to them nearly all the time as over the course of the season it gets them where they want to be overall, even if it may cost them bad results at times. If a player really can't play the system, he just gets replaced. Its also probably quite hard to try and ingrain multiple systems to the level of detail required these days.

I think we do have the alternate/B system, where we've gone with the 3 CBs and Cash more advanced, even though Cash doesn't seem to be able to play that role, and i've wondered a few times whether he's sticking with it to get the team used to it and then he will look to just sign someone more suited to that role instead of Cash.  

He's said a few times there's been occasions where he's had to basically practice stuff in games given how the fixture list has been leaving less time on the training pitch, and he's always thinking long term - after that run of losses last season to Leicester, Arsenal and City people were saying stop the playing out from the back because we can't do it, but he stuck with it because he knew we'd benefit from it later down the line.

Maybe i'm just overthinking it.

[DJBOB]

3 minutes ago, andym said:

I think that's the case with all of the top managers like Pep, Klopp etc - they have their principles, and although there can be tweaks here and there, they stick to them nearly all the time as over the course of the season it gets them where they want to be overall, even if it may cost them bad results at times. If a player really can't play the system, he just gets replaced. Its also probably quite hard to try and ingrain multiple systems to the level of detail required these days.

I think we do have the alternate/B system, where we've gone with the 3 CBs and Cash more advanced, even though Cash doesn't seem to be able to play that role, and i've wondered a few times whether he's sticking with it to get the team used to it and then he will look to just sign someone more suited to that role instead of Cash.  

He's said a few times there's been occasions where he's had to basically practice stuff in games given how the fixture list has been leaving less time on the training pitch, and he's always thinking long term - after that run of losses last season to Leicester, Arsenal and City people were saying stop the playing out from the back because we can't do it, but he stuck with it because he knew we'd benefit from it later down the line.

Maybe i'm just overthinking it.

It’s true that top positional managers like Pep, Unai and Arteta will want to play the same way even if it means forcing certain personnel into uncomfortable situations. 
 
He’s already done a great job at coaching players to be better in certain positions. McGinn in his now advanced roles. Luiz and Kamara in the pivot. Watkins into a central striker. Youri in the second striker role. 
 
But the Dendonckers and Chambers of the world can only be coached so much. 

[TomC]

19 hours ago, DJBOB said:

Dendoncker was a weak point and they focused on keeping play on Diego’s side of the pitch knowing that Dendoncker can’t pass well enough to bounce it to the other side of the pitch to escape the pressure. Luiz was inexplicably terrible as well. 
 

Jacob Tanswell just backed up your point with hard data in the Athletic...if you look at the passing networks in our team, Dendoncker had a very weak passing connection with Doug (or anyone on the left side of the field.)

(I tried posting the diagram but it's too large and I don't have time to shrink it right now.)

 

[DJBOB]

6 minutes ago, TomC said:

Jacob Tanswell just backed up your point with hard data in the Athletic...if you look at the passing networks in our team, Dendoncker had a very weak passing connection with Doug (or anyone on the left side of the field.)

(I tried posting the diagram but it's too large and I don't have time to shrink it right now.)

 

A tale easy to tell. 

[sidcow]

Keep hearing that we should only sign players who are better than current players. 

I disagree.  We've shown that a fully fit first team are good enough beat literally anyone. A fully fit first team could well win the league. 

Where our problem lies is the gigantic fall off whenever any player is injured. 

The full second string struggles against even quite poor team as we've seen with Stevenage, Everton and some pretty poor teams in Europe. 

But even one key player out of the first team seriously affects us.  Lose Luiz or McGinn of Tielemans or Kamara and the whole midfield falls off a cliff. 

We need a second string who are capable of stepping in and doing a good job without seriously affecting the rest of the lineup. 

[PieFacE]

Saw this on Twitter.

 

https://twitter.com/matthayesthfc/status/1740076793355440149

 

Urgh not sure why embedding isn't working

 

Anyway, pretty much

 

Quote

Combined total number of Premier League games missed through injury or suspension this season by first-team players in the current top 6:

Tottenham: 108
Manchester United: 106
Aston Villa: 93
Liverpool: 85
Arsenal: 67

 

So we're doing very well consiering

Edited December 28, 2023 by PieFacE

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

Keep hearing that we should only sign players who are better than current players. 

I disagree.  We've shown that a fully fit first team are good enough beat literally anyone. A fully fit first team could well win the league. 

Where our problem lies is the gigantic fall off whenever any player is injured. 

The full second string struggles against even quite poor team as we've seen with Stevenage, Everton and some pretty poor teams in Europe. 

But even one key player out of the first team seriously affects us.  Lose Luiz or McGinn of Tielemans or Kamara and the whole midfield falls off a cliff. 

We need a second string who are capable of stepping in and doing a good job without seriously affecting the rest of the lineup. 

Yes I’ve thought this for a while. You don’t need stars in every position, you need your Whelan, Chesters, and Adomah’s who aren’t a train wreck when they need to come in. We need our Park Ji Sung to come in and graft wherever he’s played. 

[TRO]

I am not sure, where to put this comment, but I suspect here is as good as anywhere.

But this is my opinion, so far........

We have improved beyond belief under Unai, the spectacle is top drawer, and the goals for column is exponentially good....we have scored 40 goals at the half way stage, where we have scored c 50 in the last 4 seasons.

We are WIP, we know that, so expectations should be tailored accordingly...nothing wrong with dreaming, I know that.

Unai has said in the Summer, that 10% of the work has been done, that leaves an awful lot left to be done.

One area that has not improved as much as the goals for column, is the goals against....we are no better, in this area, than the last 4 seasons, for whatever reason....I'm not going in to the reasons, but the stats don't lie.

Watching the games, all of them, its clear to me, there is work to be done on the defensive side of our game, if we want to be more convincing in our challenges....we have conceded 25 this season against 46 for the whole of last season, that has to improve imo.

I have seen us concede in games we have won, and for me it has raised questions....but in some games that, we have lost, its the manner, in which our defence has been breached, it has looked puny, at times and naive.....sure we have lost a quintessential defender for the season, I think defensively we miss him enormously....but the issue is not just in the back 4, it lies in midfield and up front too.....teams defend, and teams attack, not just individual players.....its starts individual, but its a collective issue.

You can't close down, on your own with any effect, it has to be a group effort....you go after players to win the ball, collectively in sync....not the odd one.

I am talking, particularly away from home, where the ingredients to silence crowds, stifle opponents enthusiasm and drain their belief, requires a certain type of approach.....and competing for the ball is paramount.

I still think we have some way to go, but signing the right players, will have us there quicker.....We have proved how good we are in certain scenario's, and we have proved we are vulnerable in others.

I hope Unai, identifies, where we need strengthening, and the owners, allow him to do it.

UTV

 

[TRO]

On 26/12/2023 at 22:32, Delphinho123 said:

Emery is a man mountain of a manager. I love him and what he’s done at the club. Hell, I hope he’s manager here for many years to come.

BUT. 

He is too strict with the way we play at times and It drives me mad. We’ve lost a couple of cup games by not changing up our style of play with personnel not equipped to play the way he likes to play - fine, I can handle that. Tonight frustrated me a lot more though. We weren’t particularly good for the first half hour but we were better than them and we found ourselves two up. Love them or hate them, United reacted really well to going two down and all of a sudden started playing well and they were causing us problems.

Now, I know we’re down to the bare bones a bit squad wise, but why not change it up at half time or even earlier? I’m not saying bring Zaniolo or Diaby on (the former is rubbish anyway), but why not mix it up a bit? Go long. Go down the channels. They’ve got a 37yr old at centre half. Get him turned and facing his own goal. Get Onana under a few high crosses and shoot a bit more - the bloke is a liability. Alas, no. We continue playing high risk football and playing a risky possession based style that involves our centre halves and midfielders receiving the ball in pressure situations. Absolutely no surprise the overly casual Carlos gives the ball away and they score. No surprise whatsoever. It was like we were waiting to make that mistake. 

Im not saying we should always ‘bang it long’ or ‘get it down the line’, before I’m branded a dinosaur, I’d just like us every now and again to mix it up and adapt to what’s happening on the pitch. Especially when we’re up against a nervous United side under pressure from their home fans.

Build a statue of Emery, cool, but tonight he pissed me off. He’s clearly very stubborn (which can be a positive as much as a negative). 

UTV

I endorse that, but for me, in certain situations, and this was one.....we are too easy to play against.

Now that can encompass, many things.....but 8 teams have beaten them this season and many were not as good as us....now that creates a debate on its own.

Diego Carlos, said " we made too many errors".....we do when we are under pressure, so why do we allow ourselves to be put under pressure, when we are a top 3 side..

We was 2-0....but we stopped competing and they smelt blood. Man U upped their game, because we allowed them to.....Bournemouth, went there an beat them, by competing and subduing the talent they showed against us.

We simply, cannot blow every team away, and that means we have to respect them and at times, resort to stopping them.

At 2-0 we should have switched in to a containing mode, and shut the game down, that would have frustrated them and the crowd, instead we turned it in to a frenzy, by a passive involvement and the siege mentality began....if we haven't got the players for that, we need to get some.

Unai will analyse this forensically, and wouldn't be surprised to see, him be influenced in the transfer market, by some of the events of this last game.

Unai will fix it.

Edited December 29, 2023 by TRO

[Kiwivillan]

3 games teams have mixed up their starting 11 in some cases dramatically(Forest). I wanted to make this post after Sheffield game but then Manure starting Rashford and Ericsson. 3 games we've come unstuck. Does that mean Emery has done tactics pre game based on expected 11 and it changes and we come unstuck? Not sure myself but just putting it forward as a theory

[Kiwivillan]

13 hours ago, TRO said:

We was 2-0....but we stopped competing and they smelt blood. Man U upped their game, because we allowed them to..

Said it in game thread after 2-0 why we given up press on their defenders in their half and just constantly allowing them to have chances. Was so annoyed at the time

[tinker]

13 minutes ago, Kiwivillan said:

3 games teams have mixed up their starting 11 in some cases dramatically(Forest). I wanted to make this post after Sheffield game but then Manure starting Rashford and Ericsson. 3 games we've come unstuck. Does that mean Emery has done tactics pre game based on expected 11 and it changes and we come unstuck? Not sure myself but just putting it forward as a theory

This seems likely, teams are now setting up for our style rather than us for theirs. Playing to our systems weaknesses.  Man U pressed hard and closed down players off the ball, our defenders had no one to pass to and when they did the players receiving the ball were immediately under pressure. Emery will have seen this , we need a way around this tactic and I trust Emery to find one.

Torres was a big miss as he carries the ball forward from defence and has the ability to play balls straight through to our forward line, forcing the opposition to track back from man to man marking leaving us with space behind.