Jareth Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 I think we'll have to add Iceland and Finland to the Russian side right? It's all geopolitics, definitely not isolated genocide by a nasty regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 It’s really starting to bubble over the pan now isn’t it. Worrying times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 And Gary Lineker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 (edited) 5 hours ago, omariqy said: Amazing what South Africa have done. A beacon of hope and morality. Sudan's paramilitary chief Mohamed Hamdan Daglo (L), with South African President Cyril Ramaphosa (R) in Pretoria, has been greeted as if he were a head of state Quote Sudan's paramilitary chief spent the first months of the country's war in the shadows. Now he has emerged to embrace civilian politicians and tour African capitals in a bid for international legitimacy, analysts say. ‘Corpses on streets’: Sudan’s RSF kills 1,300 in Darfur, monitors say Quote “They went house to house to search for men and killed each one they found,” said Montesser Saddam*, who barely escaped the killing and arrived in Chad on Sunday. “There were so many corpses in the streets.” The latest atrocities are part of a wider campaign by the RSF and its allied militias to eradicate the non-Arab Masalit tribe from West Darfur, according to activists and survivors. Since the start of Sudan’s civil war, the United Nations and Western governments have condemned the systematic killing and displacement of the Masalit from their land. But the criticism and concern have not deterred the RSF from carrying out more atrocities. What the Israel-Palestine issue has shown is that a lot of both sets of supporters are totally history, geo-politics and generally anything a bit wider than Gaza-averse. In this case, as in many other cases genocide seems totally fine as long as Arabs, Russians or Iranians commit it. If SA wants a clear-cut example of genocide to bring to the ICJ they should look no further than their allies, including the RSF above who go into villages and shoot every member of the Masalit tribe that they find. A real beacon of hope and morality. Edited January 27 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 27 VT Supporter Share Posted January 27 Sir I do declare that the plaintiff cannot bring this case accusing us of robbery as he has previously broke bread with a robber. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 27 Moderator Share Posted January 27 4 minutes ago, Chindie said: Sir I do declare that the plaintiff cannot bring this case accusing us of robbery as he has previously broke bread with a robber. Maybe you could point us in the direction of where this analogy is relevant. It’s not in this thread with regards to SA bringing the genocide case that’s for sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 Even if there was a country out there that was saintly enough and with a perfectly spotless history so pure that they could "throw the first stone" any critique against Israel (or the US or China or...) would still instantly be labeled as political and waved away. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 27 VT Supporter Share Posted January 27 7 minutes ago, bickster said: Maybe you could point us in the direction of where this analogy is relevant. It’s not in this thread with regards to SA bringing the genocide case that’s for sure Perhaps you could understand that a topic slinging shit and screaming hypocrisy at the nation credibly accusing another of genocide really does look like trying to distract (at best) or undermine (at worst) from the accusation. Otherwise I'm not really sure what South Africa's buddies, lovers and what they had for dinner last night has to do with them pointing at Israel systematically erasing their neighbour and shouting about how justified they are in eradicating the subhuman scum squatting on their god given land and asking the world to perhaps judge that it's wrong. There shouldn't be any discussion of any of South Africa's dirty laundry here, and the only mention of them should be discussing their argument and the fact they had the bollocks to press the button and make the point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 27 Moderator Share Posted January 27 12 hours ago, Jareth said: TBF I hear loud and clear the argument that Iran and Russia are up to shit. Where exactly is Israel on Ukraine? Where is Israel on Russia? If it is us Vs Russia, then what is Israel Vs? Going back to this whataboutery. Israel doesn't have to be on a side in the Ukraine situation for the Israel Hamas war to be serving the purpose. Iran pushing Hamas to make the attack on Israel AND similar with the Houthis attacking ships in the Red Sea serves Russia's purpose by dragging “the west” into other conflicts in order to distract from Ukraine and to attempt to stop the supply of even never NATO weapons to Ukraine. Israel is the unwitting pawn in the game. Hamas attack Israel and predictably Israel react as we've all seen, that leads to an escalation of tensions that means NATO and others have to start spinning plates in terms of resource allocation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted January 27 Moderator Share Posted January 27 So how do we stop Iran killing a couple of hundred children a day in Gaza? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 27 VT Supporter Share Posted January 27 3 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: So how do we stop Iran killing a couple of hundred children a day in Gaza? Short term? Erase Gaza. Long term? Erase Iran. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 27 Moderator Share Posted January 27 7 minutes ago, Chindie said: Perhaps you could understand that a topic slinging shit and screaming hypocrisy at the nation credibly accusing another of genocide really does look like trying to distract (at best) or undermine (at worst) from the accusation. Otherwise I'm not really sure what South Africa's buddies, lovers and what they had for dinner last night has to do with them pointing at Israel systematically erasing their neighbour and shouting about how justified they are in eradicating the subhuman scum squatting on their god given land and asking the world to perhaps judge that it's wrong. There shouldn't be any discussion of any of South Africa's dirty laundry here, and the only mention of them should be discussing their argument and the fact they had the bollocks to press the button and make the point. Maybe you should read the post that sparked the posts today, the one that claims that SA is a beacon of hope and morality because it clearly isn’t. It clearly wasn’t some moral objection to what Israel was doing that prompted the case being brought. There's nothing wrong with the case being brought but it really would have been better brought by a more neutral country. SA clearly isn’t what was claimed in the post earlier today You say you don’t know who SA's buddies are, maybe you should read up in that before offering an opinion. The situation in Sudan is just as bad as Gaza, it just gets much less publicity in the mainstream media. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 27 Moderator Share Posted January 27 8 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: So how do we stop Iran killing a couple of hundred children a day in Gaza? It’s a good question, they were doing that way before October 7th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted January 27 Moderator Share Posted January 27 4 minutes ago, bickster said: Maybe you should read the post that sparked the posts today, the one that claims that SA is a beacon of hope and morality because it clearly isn’t. On this issue it is - it's the nation challenging a genocide, against the will of the global hegemonic power. Motivation isn't really the question here, action is. 5 minutes ago, bickster said: It clearly wasn’t some moral objection to what Israel was doing that prompted the case being brought. Does it matter? It's still the morally correct thing to do, it's still morally right - it's still the only moral view that any decent country should have on another nations planned execution of a civilian population. 6 minutes ago, bickster said: There's nothing wrong with the case being brought but it really would have been better brought by a more neutral country. SA clearly isn’t what was claimed in the post earlier today They weren't though were they? it'd be lovely if a country more aligned with US/UK values had brought this case, but there's no chance it would happen, it would always have to be what would be considered an 'edge' state - the 'us' states are complicit in killing thousands of civilians, there's no way we could bring the case. It's a peculiar irony that a more neutral country, one that is 'better' than South Africa with the decency and moral value to bring a case couldn't be found because 'better' countries are supporting genocidal actions. Crooked coppers still catch murderers - it's not the catching murderers bit they should be criticised for. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 27 VT Supporter Share Posted January 27 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Maybe you should read the post that sparked the posts today, the one that claims that SA is a beacon of hope and morality because it clearly isn’t. It clearly wasn’t some moral objection to what Israel was doing that prompted the case being brought. There's nothing wrong with the case being brought but it really would have been better brought by a more neutral country. SA clearly isn’t what was claimed in the post earlier today You say you don’t know who SA's buddies are, maybe you should read up in that before offering an opinion. The situation in Sudan is just as bad as Gaza, it just gets much less publicity in the mainstream media. I literally don't give a flying **** about South African hypocrisy on this matter. I'm not commenting on some completely irrelevant tickling of South Africa's bollocks or the merits of how much they deserve the tickling. We've had loads of shit flung at case from the perspective of South Africa being bad since it started, that's where my comments come from. When you've got a nation that is obviously quite happily pummeling another nations civilians in a vengeancegasm that happens to tie into quite plainly held desires to have that nations land, I couldn't care if it was Satan and the legions of hell going to the ICJ to claim genocide. The facts are there, we can **** see and hear it, who puts the bloody stuff on paper and points at it matters not, and the desperate desire to try to make it matter is a flagrant attempt to try to deflect and distract from what's on the **** paper. Start the **** topic on the Sudan matter and then the discussion of South Africa's messy drawers can be mooted till the cows come home, when it's relevant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 27 Moderator Share Posted January 27 5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: On this issue it is - it's the nation challenging a genocide, against the will of the global hegemonic power. Motivation isn't really the question here, action is. It is when they are being held up as a paragon of virtue for doing it 6 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: Does it matter? Read upthread where I agreed with Chris but like I said, morals have nothing to do with it, quite demonstrably so. 9 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: it'd be lovely if a country more aligned with US/UK values had brought this case I'd argue that would be almost as bad. It would be lovely if a non aligned not complicit in other similar situations country did it but I guess they are few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 27 Moderator Share Posted January 27 8 minutes ago, Chindie said: I literally don't give a flying **** about South African hypocrisy on this matter Maybe you should. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted January 27 Moderator Share Posted January 27 1 minute ago, bickster said: I'd argue that would be almost as bad. It would be lovely if a non aligned not complicit in other similar situations country did it but I guess they are few. I'm struggling for one. Which tells it's own tale - it's obvious I think to just about every nation on earth that the situation in Gaza is morally (and now legally) wrong - yet only one nation has actually come forward to raise the case. South Africa is troubled - but every other nation should be a little bit ashamed that it's them that are carrying the flag for humanity on this one. In a land of moral midgets, they're five foot eight - they're all we've got. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 27 VT Supporter Share Posted January 27 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Maybe you should. What would knowing the entire history of South African hypocrisy do to change my position on bringing a case alleging genocide against Israel? I mean besides letting you think you've won the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted January 27 Share Posted January 27 South Africa’s chequered history clearly shouldn’t undermine the results of the court case they brought against Israel. It means the evidence and arguments SA put forward should be treated with due skepticism, but that’s what the ICJ judges are trained to do so it shouldn’t affect the ultimate ruling. However anyone who believes South Africa are “a beacon of hope and morality” absolutely need correcting given their support of genocide elsewhere in the world. SA can do a good thing but still be a bad actor, just like people wouldn’t call Saudi Arabia a beacon of morality if they’d brought the case instead. Seems strange anyone would be angry about people being against genocide. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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