Strong City

[Jerry]

OutByEaster

Since I am the one who brought up the topic I should answer this. It seems a simple thing to me. God is very personal since he made the physical world so intricately and made us to be very personal beings. He has not left us in a world that is ready to self-destruct without help. He has gone to the greatest length to create and to save. His final acts to save a lost race, many of which we have witnessed in this land and others of which that have been occurring out there where you live, have been so awesome how can we not believe. The greatest of which is His personal moving in my heart. He has freed me from the things that would have destroyed me had I stayed in the world I once lived in. He wakes me up in the night and helps me work through things wherein I need resolution. He opens things to me that I could never have figured out myself. He has assured me of longings that I have never had an assurance of before. I do not wish to lay out such precious things with those who are only curious. It would be like inviting you into the wedding bedroom. This cannot be. So I suppose my friend you will just have to accept this as an answer for now. All I can say is that I have put my trust in Him and He has not let me down. I cannot prove to anyone these things and they are not anything Wayne Bent has told me. He has most certainly helped me to see a different God than I grew up fearing, and he has always told us to go to God and ask Him what to do. He never tells us what we are to do or how to live our life.

[OutByEaster?]

I understand your reasons Jerry, and I also know that we're trampling around somewhat clumsily in your lives. I'd love a different type of answer, but I am as you note just curious.

It does seem strange to me that you have spent the time that you have studying the scientific nature of the universe and finding the proof you sought for the existence of God, without seeking also to prove the truth of his nature. Although I guess that you have to your satisfaction (which might be the only right way about it) and I respect your desire for privacy in it.

This i guess is faith, and I suspect you've either got it or you ain't.

[Jerry]

I understand your reasons Jerry, and I also know that we're trampling around somewhat clumsily in your lives. I'd love a different type of answer, but I am as you note just curious.

It does seem strange to me that you have spent the time that you have studying the scientific nature of the universe and finding the proof you sought for the existence of God, without seeking also to prove the truth of his nature. Although I guess that you have to your satisfaction (which might be the only right way about it) and I respect your desire for privacy in it.

This i guess is faith, and I suspect you've either got it or you ain't.

I can't say that I have done a lot of study, but when it has come my way I have relished it. For so many years the creation vs evolution debate seem to always go to the evolutionists. But in the last decade or two, things have swung the other way. The evidences for creation and God are fascinating to me. I feel like a kid at Christmas when new things are discovered. It is just one of the perks to my experience. What I am looking forward to is the next world. We will have all the wonders of creation and the universe to learn about. Our minds and intellect will be far superior to what we have now. The best part is we will never have to be told that something has been changed cause they found out that something was not true. Everything will be right from the Creators mouth.

When I was a kid I was quite disenchanted with school. Summers were too short. If I would have been told that eternity was going to be a continual school I would have wondered if we got summers off. Now I love to learn new things. Forgive me if I am going off into what some might think is la la land. But I know it is going to be an awesome time. And at the risk of sounding like I am recruiting I would like to have you fellows with me. I have come to enjoy your company.

[Jerry]

It does seem strange to me that you have spent the time that you have studying the scientific nature of the universe and finding the proof you sought for the existence of God, without seeking also to prove the truth of his nature. Although I guess that you have to your satisfaction (which might be the only right way about it) and I respect your desire for privacy in it.

This i guess is faith, and I suspect you've either got it or you ain't.

When I read this the first time I didn't see this particular comment. I would have to say that the proof of His nature has been the primary and ongoing revelation that I have had. Not scientific proof but experiential. I have seen His way of caring for me when I was in the blackest part of my life. I was running from God as it were. I was a miserable adulterer. I had left my wife in Wisconsin with two little kids and went off on a two week cross country escapade to Washington state to see a girlfriend there. On the trip I had a flat in the rear tire of my motorcycle. I went all over the road. There seems to have been no reason that I didn't get turned into street pizza. When I finally came to a stop, not having being dumped. I knew I had been divinely protected. I looked up into the heavens and said, “Why do you care about me?”

After arriving in Washington I was met with the unpleasant fact that she had taken up with someone else.

On the return trip I was going through the midwest about 11:00 at night and the poncho I was wearing flew up over my helmet. Traffic was all around me at freeway speed. I was wearing very heavy leather mittens. Not something that lends itself to dexterity. I was grabbing and grabbing at the poncho while screaming my head off. I thought for sure this was it. Somehow I got a hold of the poncho and got it off my head and I was right where I was suppose to be in the middle of the lane. An instant later I lost it and it was back up over my head. Again I got a hold of it and pulled it off my head and I stood up and shoved it between my legs and sat on it. I had enough adrenaline in my veins to run a mile. Again I said, “Why do you care for me?”

I am sure all of us have had these kinds of close calls, but for me I knew that it was more than just good luck. As I have recalled my life and seen the hand of love that so often delivered me from my stupidity where I placed my life in danger, I have wondered at His care cared for a wretch like me. I have seen all the proof for Gods nature and character that I have ever needed.

[Timothy]

snowychap,

So without these socail security payments your bills would be unpaid. Youe are willing and keen to condemn the cult outside of your group to the damnation of their choice whilst being willing to accept their money to fund you in your belief.

Social security is money that was paid by the people who receive it over the course of their working time. It is not welfare. And, it wasn't our idea to create social security, it was Franklin D. Roosevelt. And contrary to all appearances, I have no condemnation to the cult of the world, it simply is what it is, and I am not in agreement with it. Father says, love not the world, so I don't. It doesn't mean I hate everyone that is of the world. If I did, I wouldn't be typing this post.

[tonyh29]

are you so insane that you think a man walks into each and every home at all hours of the day and night and tells someone what to eat and drink?

i'm not the one following a man calling himself the messiah claiming my friends will rise from the dead so don't dare call me insane ..well not without a :-) at the end of the sentance :-)

my words were a figure of speach , like the words you choose to follow you can read them as you see fit

i've lost friends at a young age and heard the crap that only the good die young etc .. (btw your messiah is 60+ years old does that mean he's been bad ??)

I'm happy you've found your happy place .. but i'm content to believe that my happy place is more fun

wondering as a side issue if you've ever watched Stargate SG1 the last few seasons with the Ori can't help but make me think of you and your friends , if it's allowed , then have a watch .. i mean this in a genuine way so don't take it the wrong way

[snowychap]

I am sure all of us have had these kinds of close calls, but for me I knew that it was more than just good luck. As I have recalled my life and seen the hand of love that so often delivered me from my stupidity where I placed my life in danger, I have wondered at His care cared for a wretch like me. I have seen all the proof for Gods nature and character that I have ever needed.

I must say Jerry this kind of thing offends me somewhat. You use what most people would say would be fortunate occurences in your life to justify god's existence.

There was someone in my dorm at school (at the age of 10 or so) who died from a brain haemorrhage after being accidentally kicked in the head in a game of rugby. Should I wonder at 'His' lack of care for an innocent like him?

I will wait for the - 'but god had something else planned for him' type of answer.

I fail to see how you can use an event of good fortune to illustrate care and not allow for the fact that an opposite event (i.e. bad fortune) illustrates the oposite trait (i.e. lack of care).

I am afraid that the attitude that 'god has watched over me' when he blatantly hasn't watched over others smacks of arrogance and vanity. It is not likely to endear you to me. :evil:

[Olejniker]

The disconcerting but about this whloe thing is that the 'new messiah' is supposed to sleep with women. Sounds a bit like Rasputin if you ask me.

I'm no expert on the Bible, but I've studied it(through the Disciple course) and the only incident I can remember when God actually wanted someone to have sex with someone apart from thier spouse was in the Old Testament, when Judah's first son died, and his second refused to sleep with his deceased brother's wife in order to perpuate his borther's line of descadents. God struck him dead. In the Old Testament, customs were very different, and sometimes sex with your daughter-in-law, or even daughters was inevitable. For example, Lot and his daughters and Judah and his daughter-in-law. Polygamy was part and parcel of Israel's cultural landscape at that time, and it was alright and expected for men to have sex with many women, in order to have a long line of descadents. But God's original intention was for men to have only one partner, one spouse, and one person he/she will have sex with.

In Genesis, it is already mentioned that it is for this reason(marriage) that men will leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife to become One Flesh. One Flesh, not multiple fleshes. This is also repeated in Paul's letter to the Ephesians.

Terry, you mention that God asking Michael to have sex with his daughters is akin to that of Abram(Abraham) being asked to sacrifice his son.

No disrespect inteneded, but I think that's quite farfetched. Abraham's was a test of faith and God was never going to let Abraham live with the guilt of killing his son, and the act of sinning(commiting murder). I really don't see the similarities between a test of faith and incest.

You might say God commanded Michael to have sex with his daughter in law, but I honestly don't think this is the case.

I see you've split up with your wife. As a believer of God's word, surely you know the importance of our relationships with our wives.

I don't mean to sound preachy, but you really should get back together.

As for Michael, I personally don't know the guy. Heck, I haven't even watched this documentary. But after ascertaining the facts, it is my belief that he is one of the many false prophets that the Bible prophesized of. He may even be the anti-christ for all I know.

While I understand your disdain for the Church, Terry, which I agree has many flaws, substituting it for a 'cult' IMO isn't a wise thing to do.

On a final note, I'm just a regular guy, who supports Villa, gets frustrated with MON, and has a cruddy 9 to 5 job like the rest of you. But I believe in God and am pretty sure that Michael Tressenver(or whatever his name is) isn't a reincarnation of Christ.

[TerryCzap]

To Olejniker

You suggest that you are a Christian. Should a Christian do what God says to do? Should he not do something God tells him to do, just because it would make him look bad? Is this what Christ taught when He said He always obeys His Father?

You might say God commanded Michael to have sex with his daughter in law, but I honestly don't think this is the case.

Michael had a brief sexual relation with a divorced consenting adult woman, not his daughter in law. Saying Micahel had relations with his daughter in law is repeating a lie.

I really don't see the similarities between a test of faith and incest.

You have already said you do not know the guy. It is just as well that you did not see the fraudumentary. But you have invented the notion that Michael has committed incest. This is telling a lie. One of the Ten Commandments says that we should not tell lies. Do you feel that men should obey the ten commandments, or just some of them?

The events that occurred are very comparable to the test that Abraham was given. The difference is; Michael was commanded to do something which appears reprehensible, and God did not stop him as happened with Abraham. Who should really get the blame in this test? Wouldn't it be God, since he did not stop the event? This should be something easy to understand if one is actually a God follower.

[TheDon]

One thing I've been wondering, based on past cults...

Hypothetically (I'm not at all insinuating this will happen, just curious what the result would be if it did) if Michael came to you one day and said that God had spoken to him, and he desired for you all to ascend into heaven on a specific date, and so to do that he wanted a mass suicide, what would the result be? Would everyone in strong city go along with this?

What I'm trying to judge is what is the level of commitment to the cause so to speak, do you believe in Michael so much that you would do ANYTHING he requested with no regard for your own personal consequences? I.e. is it pure blind faith?

This is probably the one thing that concerns people most about groups such as yours, the idea that all the members are so commited that they will do whatever their leader says without any assurance of the actual consequences.

[Jerry]

I am sure all of us have had these kinds of close calls, but for me I knew that it was more than just good luck. As I have recalled my life and seen the hand of love that so often delivered me from my stupidity where I placed my life in danger, I have wondered at His care cared for a wretch like me. I have seen all the proof for Gods nature and character that I have ever needed.

I must say Jerry this kind of thing offends me somewhat. You use what most people would say would be fortunate occurences in your life to justify god's existence.

There was someone in my dorm at school (at the age of 10 or so) who died from a brain haemorrhage after being accidentally kicked in the head in a game of rugby. Should I wonder at 'His' lack of care for an innocent like him?

I will wait for the - 'but god had something else planned for him' type of answer.

I fail to see how you can use an event of good fortune to illustrate care and not allow for the fact that an opposite event (i.e. bad fortune) illustrates the oposite trait (i.e. lack of care).

I am afraid that the attitude that 'god has watched over me' when he blatantly hasn't watched over others smacks of arrogance and vanity. It is not likely to endear you to me. :evil:

This is a reasonable question snowychap. There are millions of such cases of "innocents". How can I look into any of them and make a judgment. I can only know my own. I know I have been preserved. For those who do not believe in God they are left to see it as good fortune. However for me to think of the events of life are just the result of a flip of the coin is unthinkable.

First off, humans without God think of our few years on this planet as life, and that is all you get. It is a short stint indeed. It is the other side of time where my focus lies. Where life is eternal and what ever happens here is only an out working of something that the redeemed would look back on with satisfaction and say I would not have had it any other way. They will see that no matter how tragic, it was perfect for they will then see all the other factors involved. Every question will be answered then. We will know why things happened as they did and why we are there and some other person is not. We will see the fairness of it all.

So to put in words that perhaps you might understand, God's care is there is apparent misfortune just as it is there in apparent good fortune. I hope this helps.

[TerryCzap]

To Don

Your question is understandable considering the way the average citizen has been programed. I’ll give a couple examples to drive the point home. Nearly every war the U.S. (or any other nation) has engaged in for the last 100 years was based on deception. Iraq and Vietnam are the best examples of this, but are just two of them. Iraq had no WMD and the U.S. was not attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin. Five million peasants have died because of these two lies.

One of the reasons people think we will blindly drink poison and kill ourselves is the wonderful spin doctors of our day. We are told David Koresh and the Branch Davidians killed themselves those many years ago. If you did some research, you would find out this is not true. Films like “The Waco Lie” and “Rules of Engagement” clearly demonstrate the Davidians were murdered by a cult who does not like people to live in a free manner. There is also a lot of controvery about the real events that happened at Jonestown, the home of the koolaid story.

Think about it; the Davidians were held up in their own compound and were a long ways from any other neighbors. The government could have sat there for years and waited and watched. But because they are the true cult, and claiming to save the children (the same uproar we hear), they (U.S. Gov.) went in and torched the place to the ground.

The root of the problem here is that people are liars and love to be lied to. Your whole world is base and propelled by a lie. So when someone like myself says we will never commit suicide, we are not believed. For 20 years we have been telling society we are going to leave the earth (not suicide), just as the bible says we would and like Jesus did. You could simply believe me and you would know what I am saying is true.

But let me ask you this: why would it be so tragic if we violated every law within our own being and killed ouselves? We are only 48 happy people living as we see fit. On the other hand; the true Cult has murdered over two million citizens in Iraq and people just wink. Doesn't this seem to be a bit contradictory? Soon a war will be launched to murder a few million more in Iran. We are only 48 people. You see, the real issue is the true cult (U.S.A, UK) does not want people to be free.

[Jerry]

One thing I've been wondering, based on past cults...

Hypothetically (I'm not at all insinuating this will happen, just curious what the result would be if it did) if Michael came to you one day and said that God had spoken to him, and he desired for you all to ascend into heaven on a specific date, and so to do that he wanted a mass suicide, what would the result be? Would everyone in strong city go along with this?

What I'm trying to judge is what is the level of commitment to the cause so to speak, do you believe in Michael so much that you would do ANYTHING he requested with no regard for your own personal consequences? I.e. is it pure blind faith?

This is probably the one thing that concerns people most about groups such as yours, the idea that all the members are so commited that they will do whatever their leader says without any assurance of the actual consequences.

Regarding the level of commitment. Michael does not deal with us in this way. He always tells us to go ask Father what you are to do. When some have come to him and said they wanted to leave, he did not try to talk them out of it. He placed money in their hand and even gave one of the cars to one man. He supports us in what we want to do and he listens to God as to what to do in each situation.

I was facing a very difficult decision to separate from my wife right after we moved here in 2000. Everything I would pick up and read was pointing to it. It was so in my face I would have to have been blind to miss it. The one word that kept coming to me was "abandonment". My wife was also being given the same instructions. But we did not know the other was being told the same thing until the decision was made and we then talked about it. It was quite interesting to see how our leading had dovetailed.

I had just finished converting a 40 foot school bus into a motorhome with double slideouts. It had the best quality I was able to put into it. Lots of stainless steel, marble counter tops etc. It was like I was being asked to kill my son. I invited Michael over one day and was telling him about what I was getting. I said that God was telling me to abandon everything and that I was going to move out and let my wife have it all. He said, You can abandon everything while your still living right here. Abandonment is letting go of your "possession and attachments" of things and people.

I said, Well that may be true, but what's being put on me is to leave it all literally and physically. He did not try to stop me. If someone says "God told them" his hands are off of it.

The day I moved out, I felt like my heart was being riped out. (really it was self pity) I moved into this little trailer that was made available. I sat down at the table feeling numb. I glanced at some books that had been left behind by the previous occupant. I picked up one of them and opened it to some where in the middle of the book. The first words my eyes fell upon were, "Have you ever abandon everything?" I began to weep. I could clearly see that He was saying. Just step here and then I will tell you what to do next.

So you see it is not to Wayne that we are committed to. It is to Michael in our hearts that we follow.

[Amanah]

Olejniker: You used the word "incest" in referring to Michaels intimacy with his "daughter". Later you called her his daughter-in-law which was what she really had been.

Merriam-Webster: : sexual intercourse between persons so closely related that they are forbidden by law to marry.

Incest would be the proper word if she truly had been his biological daughter but since she was his former daughter-in-law and not a blood relative that word does not apply.

[snowychap]

I will wait for the - 'but god had something else planned for him' type of answer.

This is a reasonable question snowychap. There are millions of such cases of "innocents". How can I look into any of them and make a judgment. I can only know my own. I know I have been preserved. For those who do not believe in God they are left to see it as good fortune. However for me to think of the events of life are just the result of a flip of the coin is unthinkable.

First off, humans without God think of our few years on this planet as life, and that is all you get. It is a short stint indeed. It is the other side of time where my focus lies. Where life is eternal and what ever happens here is only an out working of something that the redeemed would look back on with satisfaction and say I would not have had it any other way. They will see that no matter how tragic, it was perfect for they will then see all the other factors involved. Every question will be answered then. We will know why things happened as they did and why we are there and some other person is not. We will see the fairness of it all.

So to put in words that perhaps you might understand, God's care is there is apparent misfortune just as it is there in apparent good fortune. I hope this helps.

Sorry, but I start to get very tired with and bored of people who feel the need to patronise.

Banter, have a laugh, tell someone that you believe they're wrong but don't go around belittling their intelligence in order to try to support your side of the discussion. Puerile style, I'm afraid. :roll:

[snowychap]

To Don

We are only 48 people.

Only 48. Were you not 70 strong? When did you lose these others?

[dundeevilla]

Michael had a brief sexual relation with a divorced consenting adult woman, not his daughter in law. Saying Micahel had relations with his daughter in law is repeating a lie.

She and Michael both said in the film that God told them that Michael had to consumate the marriage. So he had sex with her (his son's wife).

Are you saying they were divorced at this point? I seem to remember you saying earlier in the thread that they had "agreed to separate" for a while so that the consumation could take place.

So which is it?

[Jerry]

So to put in words that perhaps you might understand, God's care is there is apparent misfortune just as it is there in apparent good fortune. I hope this helps.

Sorry, but I start to get very tired with and bored of people who feel the need to patronise.

Banter, have a laugh, tell someone that you believe they're wrong but don't go around belittling their intelligence in order to try to support your side of the discussion. Puerile style, I'm afraid. :roll:

[villab0y]

So God has told michael to sleep with these women.

Did God tell him why?

I just don't understand why God would tell someone to sin.

[snowychap]

Sorry friend if you took it that way. I have nothing in my heart that resonates with this thought about patronization you have brought up. If I have done something wrong, it is in ignorance. But I am very willing to say forgive me.

I take it that you are actually saying forgive me rather than just announcing your willingness to say so.

I am more than happy to forgive you but I would wonder whether I have the power to do that? I would have thought that you could only seek forgiveness from one source.

I would have to say that I am skeptical about the ignorance. Judging by the careful way in which you and your companions choose your words, I doubt that you are ignorant of the way people might construe anything you say or do.