The Video Assistant Referee (VAR)

[villa4europe]

1 minute ago, villa4europe said:

Do you think that's given 100/100 around every ground for every team in the PL?

Or do you think that's given for 6 teams in the league predominantly when they're at home? Maybe even 2 home teams in particular

That's where the PL is at

Liverpool at anfield and man utd at OT win that penalty, probably Harry Kane too, other than that I'm not convinced, Ollie Watkins got sent off for less

I'll ask this a better way which is probably key - does anybody think Fulham win that penalty tonight?

Of course they don't

[Davkaus]

Just now, StefanAVFC said:

He isn’t body checked though. 
 

the only contact is on Diop’s standing leg by an already airborne Nunez 

There's a fair argument it's a 50/50, what tips in in favour of Nunez for me is he's won the ball, and Diop has whiffed it.

While Nunez's leg is trailing, Diop is certainly still moving forward into Nunez

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, Davkaus said:

There's a fair argument it's a 50/50, what tips in in favour of Nunez for me is he's won the ball, and Diop has whiffed it.

While Nunez's leg is trailing, Diop is certainly still moving forward into Nunez

The images show otherwise. He’s already pulled out of the challenge before the contact. 
 

FWIW if the contact was on the leg that Diop used to attempt to clear the ball with, I’d probably agree with your reasoning. 
 

but due to the contact being on the standing leg after he’s already pulled out I just can’t agree 

[a-k]

3 minutes ago, fightoffyour said:

If you watch the last angle first you see that the only contact occurs here:

If you think rewind to the better angle at the same frame you can see this is how Divin Nunez looks at the moment of contact:

What is he doing here? Looks like a **** man bun of a ballet dancer.

His back leg is extended in a completely unnatural position to engineer contact. That means dive. It's staggering this even needs to be explained when you could just watch the clip and see how ridiculous it looks.

How's about 2 frames before that, where it's clear he has to bring his leg up and over to avoid a collision?

[fightoffyour]

1 minute ago, a-k said:

I have said in multiple messages that I am not talking about whether it is a pen or not, I am saying it is not a "dive", it is a natural reaction to having someone kick right in front of you.

He jumped to avoid contact is fair enough.

The dive part comes in when you react in a way that the situation doesn't warrant, usually combined with an unnatural movement to cause that situation in the first place.

This has both, unnatural hanging of the leg and then minimal contact that doesn't cause the player to lose balance.

See also Kane vs Cash, unnatural movement towards the leg for no reason. There was contact in both yes, still dives, still shouldn't be penalties.

[villa4europe]

2 minutes ago, a-k said:

I have said in multiple messages that I am not talking about whether it is a pen or not, I am saying it is not a "dive", it is a natural reaction to having someone kick right in front of you.

The dive element for me is that I think he has actually successfully hurdled it, he can land that if he wants, awkwardly admittedly but I think he can stay up, his right foot should plant solidly enough to be ok... But he doesn't want to

If he really wanted to stay on his feet I think he can

[Davkaus]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

and even if you accept the logic that he’s hurdling him to avoid the contact, his back leg is entirely unnatural; therefore obvious dive. 

If this standard was applied across the board I'd have no issue with it. For me it's a "2023 PL with VAR penalty".

I'd be all for clamping down on "manufactured" fouls, but this is the same shit Kane, Salah and Grealish get away with most weekends. He knows what he's doing with that trailing leg for sure

[a-k]

Just now, StefanAVFC said:

The images show otherwise. He’s already pulled out of the challenge before the contact. 
 

FWIW if the contact was on the leg that Diop used to attempt to clear the ball with, I’d probably agree with your reasoning. 
 

but due to the contact being on the standing leg after he’s already pulled out I just can’t agree 

He "pulled out" literally milliseconds before contact, the damage was already done, no one can reaction that fast

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, a-k said:

He "pulled out" literally milliseconds before contact, the damage was already done, no one can reaction that fast

You think it’s natural to drag your leg into a defender’s standing leg to manufacture contact. I don’t. It’s as simple as that. 

[Davkaus]

2 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

The images show otherwise. He’s already pulled out of the challenge before the contact. 
 

FWIW if the contact was on the leg that Diop used to attempt to clear the ball with, I’d probably agree with your reasoning. 
 

but due to the contact being on the standing leg after he’s already pulled out I just can’t agree 

He's tried to pull out of the challenge, he's still stumbling forward though and has his part to play with the contact

I'm sympathetic because you can't just stop still on a pinhead when you're in motion, but that's the risk you take going for a ball you're not sure you can win

[fightoffyour]

1 minute ago, a-k said:

He "pulled out" literally milliseconds before contact

[Davkaus]

3 minutes ago, fightoffyour said:

He jumped to avoid contact is fair enough.

The dive part comes in when you react in a way that the situation doesn't warrant, usually combined with an unnatural movement to cause that situation in the first place.

This has both, unnatural hanging of the leg and then minimal contact that doesn't cause the player to lose balance.

See also Kane vs Cash, unnatural movement towards the leg for no reason. There was contact in both yes, still dives, still shouldn't be penalties.

FWIW, I agree with this almost entirely.

There's two separate discussions, I think

Should it be a penalty, and is it a penalty in the 2023 PL. My answers to those questions are very different. I think we're in agreement with the answer to the first one, I'd like a much harder line on manufacturing contact - frankly I was embarrassed most weeks by half the shit free kicks Grealish used to "win" for us.

[a-k]

Just now, StefanAVFC said:

You think it’s natural to drag your leg into a defender’s standing leg to manufacture contact. I don’t. It’s as simple as that. 

No, I think it's natural to respond to a leg being kicked out in front of me by trying to hurdle it. You are acting like this happened over a matter of seconds. Everything happens in half a second. He was already in the process of hurdling when Diop's leg was back to a "natural position". No human can react that fast enough to magically stop hurdling mid-stride.

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, Davkaus said:

He's tried to pull out of the challenge, he's still stumbling forward though and has his part to play with the contact

I'm sympathetic because you can't just stop still on a pinhead when you're in motion, but that's the risk you take going for a ball you're not sure you can win

Again I’d agree with you if he’s tried to clear the ball, failed and clearly wiped Nunez out. He hasn’t. He’s missed the ball, Nunez has jumped past him, dragged his leg unnaturally to manufacture contact then fallen over when he could have easily stayed on his feet. That’s the key n

 

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, a-k said:

No, I think it's natural to respond to a leg being kicked out in front of me by trying to hurdle it. You are acting like this happened over a matter of seconds. Everything happens in half a second. He was already in the process of hurdling when Diop's leg was back to a "natural position". No human can react that fast enough to magically stop hurdling mid-stride.

It’s clearly happened slowly enough that he’s had chance to drag his leg back into Diop’s standing leg to manufacture contact. 

[a-k]

Just now, StefanAVFC said:

It’s clearly happened slowly enough that he’s had chance to drag his leg back into Diop’s standing leg to manufacture contact. 

There are literally 2 frames between the last still I posted and the ones I quoted in that post. Mental if you think he can react that quickly

[StefanAVFC]

2 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

FWIW, I agree with this almost entirely.

There's two separate discussions, I think

Should it be a penalty, and is it a penalty in the 2023 PL. My answers to those questions are very different. I think we're in agreement with the answer to the first one, I'd like a much harder line on manufacturing contact - frankly I was embarrassed most weeks by half the shit free kicks Grealish used to "win" for us.

The issue is they’ve taken a harder line on it outside of the box. Hardly anything is given like this *ever* outside. 
 

which makes it all the more galling when this shit is given. 
 

seriously when was the last yellow card for simulation even given? It seems like they’ve given up on enforcing it entirely. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by StefanAVFC

[Davkaus]

Just now, StefanAVFC said:

 

seriously when was the last yellow card for simulation even given? It seems like they’ve given up on enforcing it entirely. 

Last one I can remember was a second yellow for Watkins for what was quite clearly a **** foul  

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, Davkaus said:

Last one I can remember was a second yellow for Watkins for what was quite clearly a **** foul  

It wasn’t 100% a foul but it certainly wasn’t a dive

[fightoffyour]

3 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

The issue is they’ve taken a harder line on it outside of the box. Hardly anything is given like this *ever* outside. 

Good point, you'd never see anything like this outside the box.

The value of penalties and the apparent ease at which certain teams can win them has meant that football has splintered into two versions inside and outside the box, and this has only been amplified since VAR with the ability to slow motion replay everything. But not to find dives no, to actually look for any minimal contact to justify giving penalties!

Even more bizarre is that while this is going, perfectly decent goals are being scrutinised under a fine comb for any possible reason in the entire passage of play before the ball going in the net to disallow that goal!

We seem to have morphed into a situation where we like to award penalties that decide matches for completely unnatural motions but don't reward actual football. Wonderful.