bobzy Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 9 minutes ago, TheStagMan said: Woah woah, hold on there, you are blaming THE FANS for the poor performance of the club over the last six years???????? "A part of the problem..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Just now, TheStagMan said: What's was wrong with those seven words, and the comma? Nothing is wrong with them, I just don't agree that a manager as experienced as Bruce is or has been 'out of his depth'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 26 minutes ago, TheStagMan said: Woah woah, hold on there, you are blaming THE FANS for the poor performance of the club over the last six years???????? woah woah woah, no, but it's been a contributing factor (in my opinion) to the overall decline of the club. Nowhere near as much a factor as an owner with no further interest in the club, the string of poor managerial/staff appointments and a poor transfer policy, but still a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 40 minutes ago, macandally said: Hasn't taken Warnock a year to sort out his major rectification job! sorry but that is a poor excuse for poor management Warnock didn't inherit a club/team that had just dropped out of the Premier League in a truly embarrassing fashion, he also didn't inherit a club that had hired a new Manager just three months prior, he also didn't inherit a club that had just been taken over 4 months previously by new owners who installed new staff. But sure, it's exactly the same right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted October 5, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, TheStagMan said: Show me a post of someone that is unhappy that we have won. Specifically that they are unhappy that we have won. I bet you can't. He could quite easily show you a post where someone has openly said they want us to lose as game which we then ended up winning. You would assume from that that the poster in question wasn't happy that we won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 51 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: woah woah woah, no, but it's been a contributing factor (in my opinion) to the overall decline of the club. Nowhere near as much a factor as an owner with no further interest in the club, the string of poor managerial/staff appointments and a poor transfer policy, but still a factor. When you compare it to the other factors you've mentioned it becomes clear that it's not even a factor. There's no way the crowd support or behaviour would have changed anything that's happened over the last 5 years, what do you possibly think it could have effected? And to be honest I'm not sure what's bad about it? We have high attendances, when there's something positive to get behind we do it massively in numbers and likewise, when there's things to be unhappy about we voice our opinion. Maybe if more pressure had been put on Lerner to sell up earlier, it might have possibly changed things but I doubt it. I'd love to know what effect you think it could have had over the last few years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said: woah woah woah, no, but it's been a contributing factor (in my opinion) to the overall decline of the club. Nowhere near as much a factor as an owner with no further interest in the club, the string of poor managerial/staff appointments and a poor transfer policy, but still a factor. The fan reaction is a symptom not a cause of our decline. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 2 hours ago, TheStagMan said: The relevance is that you look for trends and improvements. You analyse results and performances to see how you are doing over a period of time, and you chose a longer time period to rule out anomalous results and luck (good or bad) Up until the last few games there had been no improvement in performances. That's the relevance. If you are discounting the last season's performances because they are done, gone, in the past, then you must also discount the fabled four promotions on the same basis. I think you are missing the main point....which has been repeated on here, to a tedious degree. i would like you to acknowledge it, even if you disagree. I acknowledge your comparison with the following proviso.....The mitigation, which needs some appreciation, was of last season and was in a massive state of flux, we was no where near the finished article....it was like a house half built....it is difficult to appraise a manager on results in those circumstances.....you can monitor his rectification, but it is not an exact science and mistakes are almost inevitable, which makes it difficult to judge. We are now finished for now.....and now is a fair time to judge. Trends and improvements can now be relied on much more that we have a balanced team....and in principle yes i agree. i see last seasons performances and results v his 4 promotions a very disjointed comparison......this seasons performances and results, i think is a different animal. just my take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 13 hours ago, MrDuck said: Bruce is now doing pretty much what it says on the tin. Hard to beat, not the most attractive football, but challenging at the right end of the table. It's taken him a while, but it's hard to understate just how bad the mess was that he inherited. That last sentence is the bit i find so frustrating to get across. I have seen few fans address that issue in a considerate manner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 3 hours ago, Grasshopper said: and alternatively, what will you ALL owe me? PS GH no WS - GH older than BE Homage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 2 hours ago, TheStagMan said: Show me a post of someone that is unhappy that we have won. Specifically that they are unhappy that we have won. I bet you can't. Not unhappy.....but unable to enjoy the wins without indulging in caveates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said: Warnock didn't inherit a club/team that had just dropped out of the Premier League in a truly embarrassing fashion, he also didn't inherit a club that had hired a new Manager just three months prior, he also didn't inherit a club that had just been taken over 4 months previously by new owners who installed new staff. But sure, it's exactly the same right? He also didn't inherit a team with some excellent players for the level they were at and I don't believe he was given the sort of funds Bruce has had in the January and summer window. It's not exactly the same but it is a valid point when a time period is used to excuse anything negative. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 29 minutes ago, dn1982 said: The fan reaction is a symptom not a cause of our decline. i think this is a tricky one. when a team /club is in good shape, you can afford to give the occasional kick up the back side to get them back on track anf they will take it in good faith. when a team/ club has been to the depths we have.....they need support to get back. I still think some fans have not quite got to grips of the extent of our demise and what it had done to all the personnel at the club. We may be paying customers and all that but sometimes it needs carrot not stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 I suspect that October is going to distill a fair few fans opinions on Bruce. If we are close to the 2 points a game target at the end of the month even I might have to consider he may well be on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, DCJonah said: He also didn't inherit a team with some excellent players for the level they were at and I don't believe he was given the sort of funds Bruce has had in the January and summer window. It's not exactly the same but it is a valid point when a time period is used to excuse anything negative. I actually think funds at this level is a very debatable argument....and Steve's exploits this last summer is an illustration. The main thing they address is that it speeds up the team building process. teams that have spent very little but have had time to build have shown to be a fairly good example / model of success in this division. some of the crucial attributes of getting out of this league are not necessarily commensurate with funds. Edited October 5, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 13 minutes ago, TRO said: Not unhappy.....but unable to enjoy the wins without indulging in caveates. The club's target this year was automatic promotion. An acceptable target would be to go up through the playoffs. We aren't currently in a league position that will achieve either of those targets. And that's after an an excellent run of form. So of course people aren't going to just enjoy the wins and ignore everything else. I've really enjoyed the last few games, even the Bolton win despite the poor performance. But ultimately those individual games mean **** all if we don't go up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 8 minutes ago, DCJonah said: The club's target this year was automatic promotion. An acceptable target would be to go up through the playoffs. We aren't currently in a league position that will achieve either of those targets. And that's after an an excellent run of form. So of course people aren't going to just enjoy the wins and ignore everything else. I've really enjoyed the last few games, even the Bolton win despite the poor performance. But ultimately those individual games mean **** all if we don't go up. It means ****all if we don't go up, but its October, not May. its no good mentioning the poor start....its gone.....we are now moving towards getting back on track.....we can't change the poor start.....we need to worry about what we can change. Leeds got beat by Cardiff, but its no good wallowing in it, they have to move on too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 21 minutes ago, TRO said: i think this is a tricky one. when a team /club is in good shape, you can afford to give the occasional kick up the back side to get them back on track anf they will take it in good faith. when a team/ club has been to the depths we have.....they need support to get back. I still think some fans have not quite got to grips of the extent of our demise and what it had done to all the personnel at the club. We may be paying customers and all that but sometimes it needs carrot not stick. I think some fans except demise and then settle for less than we should expect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 18 minutes ago, DCJonah said: The club's target this year was automatic promotion. An acceptable target would be to go up through the playoffs. We aren't currently in a league position that will achieve either of those targets. And that's after an an excellent run of form. So of course people aren't going to just enjoy the wins and ignore everything else. I've really enjoyed the last few games, even the Bolton win despite the poor performance. But ultimately those individual games mean **** all if we don't go up. There's no no point reiterating the fact we are underacheiving at present as all you get is wait and see. Burton was a good performance and I'm the same I enjoyed Bolton because we won but people getting carried away on the back of a good month of results against teams I'd expect expect us to do well against isn't the best idea. October will show us a lot more about this team but i think those easy fixtures came just at the right time for Bruce and hopefully we can carry the form on now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, dn1982 said: I think some fans except demise and then settle for less than we should expect. Two ways of looking at it i accept.....but thats mainly where the difference of opinion manifests from. no one is right. Edited October 5, 2017 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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