TRO Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 This Offensive / defensive debate is fascinating to me. If you watch Manchester United under Fergie and it's coming back under Jose......Everyone(fans) pick up on their Offensive capability, because it was/is spectacular in the main. but just take some time out to watch the defensive side or their game.....They are durable,resilient and tough.....they cope admirably with the physicial side of the game too. Its no wonder they have had the success that they have. you have to have both to win things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vreitti Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 6 minutes ago, TRO said: This Offensive / defensive debate is fascinating to me. If you watch Manchester United under Fergie and it's coming back under Jose......Everyone(fans) pick up on their Offensive capability, because it was/is spectacular in the main. but just take some time out to watch the defensive side or their game.....They are durable,resilient and tough.....they cope admirably with the physicial side of the game too. Its no wonder they have had the success that they have. you have to have both to win things. Very true. Then again, we've had neither of these capabilities for ages. You certainly need the balance to be successful long term, unless you are Real Madrid. Arsenal, and Liverpool are good examples of what can happen when the balance is somewhat lacking. Still I'd rather see us attacking like them, losing once in while, as opposed to the garbage Bruce thus far has served up as a whole. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, vreitti said: Very true. Then again, we've had neither of these capabilities for ages. You certainly need the balance to be successful long term, unless you are Real Madrid. Arsenal, and Liverpool are good examples of what can happen when the balance is somewhat lacking. Still I'd rather see us attacking like them, losing once in while, as opposed to the garbage Bruce thus far has served up as a whole. You say Arsenal.....but I think Arsenal are a perfect example ( of a top team) not quite getting the balance right.....you look at their offensive work and its hard to find a team to better it....but they win very little. when they had Dixon-Adams-Bould-Winterburn.....Viera-Petit They were not as technically gifted as the ones they have now......but they contributed to that CRUCIAL balance. Edited March 2, 2017 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 14 hours ago, sidcow said: It's funny. You can read these pages and think that there are millions of Bruce haters, large part of the support. Then you go to the game and despite the many poor performances recently hear very, very vociferous support for him. Quite took me back yesterday just how loud his name was being sung. I think there's a few who hate him, mainly I think it's just people who don't have faith in him to get us promoted. He's clearly got a large level of support at the club and within the fan base though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 22 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: In the championship? Really? Absolutely, yes. There's an argument on promotion being a possibility but, really, I've had enough of being a boring, shit team in the Premier League. There's no enjoyment in it at all. I get that people have different views, but I'd sooner watch a team be entertaining that just be a side which is boring but gets plenty of 1-0 wins. 21 hours ago, Stevo985 said: Madness really. Imagine how miserable you'd have to be to moan about winning the league because it wasn't entertaining enough. Well, as I said in the post that DDID quoted, "obviously not at the complete detriment of results". Winning the league is an extreme. Getting relegated is an extreme. Give me entertaining football in 12th position than terrible football in 4th, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 4 hours ago, Stevo985 said: That's not what people are saying. People are just saying that others put too much faith in "good football" when, in reality, good football is winning football. No it's not - hence the phrase "winning ugly". It isn't good football. It's a grind. Give me watching us in the 2-2 draw with Forest over watching us in the 1-0 win over Derby any day. ANY day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Just now, bobzy said: Absolutely, yes. There's an argument on promotion being a possibility but, really, I've had enough of being a boring, shit team in the Premier League. There's no enjoyment in it at all. I get that people have different views, but I'd sooner watch a team be entertaining that just be a side which is boring but gets plenty of 1-0 wins. Well, as I said in the post that DDID quoted, "obviously not at the complete detriment of results". Winning the league is an extreme. Getting relegated is an extreme. Give me entertaining football in 12th position than terrible football in 4th, though. So just to clarify you would risk our short and medium term future for the sake of one 'boring' season and potential promotion back to the top flight? Who is to say we would be a boring, shit team when we are actually IN the Premier League? Medium and long term I mean, there would of course be a transition/stability period. Bruce or any manager you can name wouldn't be around forever regardless. I think your opinion is very short sighted. The aim right now should be the Premier League at (almost) any cost. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 On a personal note, recent results aside I like the Bruce style. It's hardly Pulis-ball (though I would take that 8th in the PL right now). I like to see my team in a good scrap, preferably coming out the other side victorious. As I've said before, that for me is The Villa Way. I appreciate it isn't for everyone. But give me a 1-0 win over a 2-2 draw any day, no matter how it is attained. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: So just to clarify you would risk our short and medium term future for the sake of one 'boring' season and potential promotion back to the top flight? Who is to say we would be a boring, shit team when we are actually IN the Premier League? Medium and long term I mean, there would of course be a transition/stability period. Bruce or any manager you can name wouldn't be around forever regardless. I think your opinion is very short sighted. The aim right now should be the Premier League at (almost) any cost. I guess it depends on what this risk factor is. I haven't once said "give me entertaining football over promotion/winning the league". You're basing the discussion on success - ignore that. I said I'd rather finish midtable but watch entertaining stuff than finish 4th playing shit football (I'll add, but definitely not go up). Would you rather be finish 17th in the Premier League each season than playing entertaining football in the Championship? I'd take the latter, personally. Obviously, this isn't about predicting the future and where we "may go". It's a preference on what I'm watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkLillis Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 When we get back to the Premier we will be a solid side that is difficult to beat. Bruce has started this process by signing players that are more suitable to this division. These players will perform at the required standard I'm sure,once the partnerships are sorted out. We can all see that we are stronger with Chester and Baker protected by Jedinak. Soon we will have a midfield combination that works (no idea what that maybe, but I'm sure Steve is working on it) and making sure that the full backs and the wide midfielders know what each other are doing. He will be working on Kodjas awareness so that other players supporting runs don't go to waste.... The list is endless!! Derby are a good example of where we are heading, they looked like a team all over the pitch. I know it seems like a low benchmark but small steps start a long journey, after all didn't I just see a stat showing that only Stockport County have been worse than us since O'Neil left? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, bobzy said: I guess it depends on what this risk factor is. I haven't once said "give me entertaining football over promotion/winning the league". You're basing the discussion on success - ignore that. I said I'd rather finish midtable but watch entertaining stuff than finish 4th playing shit football (I'll add, but definitely not go up). Would you rather be finish 17th in the Premier League each season than playing entertaining football in the Championship? I'd take the latter, personally. Obviously, this isn't about predicting the future and where we "may go". It's a preference on what I'm watching. I can't ignore it when one of the scenario's includes potential success (playoff spot) and the other doesn't (12th). Success is more important to me than pretty little triangles in the centre circle. You're then twisting the debate by asking whether I would rather finish 17th in the PL. Upon promotion? Definitely, yes. Everything we do right now should be to ensure future success because at the moment we have none, yet you're asking me to ignore than and have a debate with you based on a set of circumstances that don't exist. Finishing 12th in the Championship every season would inevitably lead to us becoming completely irrelevant. The football is likely to get worse from there. Besides, not many 'entertaining' teams finish 12th in The Championship. Edited March 2, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carewjust4u Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 My opinion is that Bruce has an unbalanced side, and this is largely not his fault. It must be very difficult when you have only one midfielder that is capable of playing a defensive role to cover the centre-backs, I imagine that's why he's had to so many differing formations to try and adapt to that. The other issue is that apart from Hutton, the whole team is completely new to the club, we all know it takes a long while for understanding and chemistry to develop. Whenever I've watched Bruce reflect on games he's always spoken negatively about our tendency to get "drawn into the long ball", so I can't imagine this is how he pictures us playing long-term. We have the players (minus one more CDM), we have the manager, the chairman, the facilities and the support....It's going to take a proper pre-season to get everything into place rather than trying to improvise as we go. I know supporting Aston Villa has lacked all kinds of logic over the last half decade, but all the pieces are in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 2, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted March 2, 2017 44 minutes ago, bobzy said: No it's not - hence the phrase "winning ugly". It isn't good football. It's a grind. Give me watching us in the 2-2 draw with Forest over watching us in the 1-0 win over Derby any day. ANY day. Madness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 27 minutes ago, MarkLillis said: When we get back to the Premier we will be a solid side that is difficult to beat. Bruce has started this process by signing players that are more suitable to this division. These players will perform at the required standard I'm sure,once the partnerships are sorted out. We can all see that we are stronger with Chester and Baker protected by Jedinak. Soon we will have a midfield combination that works (no idea what that maybe, but I'm sure Steve is working on it) and making sure that the full backs and the wide midfielders know what each other are doing. He will be working on Kodjas awareness so that other players supporting runs don't go to waste.... The list is endless!! Derby are a good example of where we are heading, they looked like a team all over the pitch. I know it seems like a low benchmark but small steps start a long journey, after all didn't I just see a stat showing that only Stockport County have been worse than us since O'Neil left? good post.aka Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, TRO said: good post.aka Mark Is Mark not his real name? Like mine isn't Doug? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 15 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: I can't ignore it when one of the scenario's includes potential success (playoff spot) and the other doesn't (12th). Success is more important to me than pretty little triangles in the centre circle. You're then twisting the debate by asking whether I would rather finish 17th in the PL. Upon promotion? Definitely, yes. Everything we do right now should be to ensure future success because at the moment we have none, yet you're asking me to ignore than and have a debate with you based on a set of circumstances that don't exist. Finishing 12th in the Championship every season would inevitably lead to us becoming completely irrelevant. The football is likely to get worse from there. Besides, not many 'entertaining' teams finish 12th in The Championship. I guess this is where we differ, overall. In my lifetime, I've seen Aston Villa win 2 trophies - the same one, actually, but twice. I cannot buy "everything we do right now should be to ensure future success" because future success is highly unlikely. Future success may well be more money into the club because of Premier League status but there's nothing to suggest that being promoted = better football. If anything, the opposite is true. Recent seasons (before relegation) have been terrible. I don't want a lifetime of simply existing at the bottom of the league because we'd be a top flight club. Entertainment matters to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Just now, dont_do_it_doug. said: Is Mark not his real name? Like mine isn't Doug? Not Sure, don't think so.....Didn't we have a player called Mark Lillis? played under Graham Taylor Mk 1.....87-89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 1 minute ago, bobzy said: I guess this is where we differ, overall. In my lifetime, I've seen Aston Villa win 2 trophies - the same one, actually, but twice. I cannot buy "everything we do right now should be to ensure future success" because future success is highly unlikely. Future success may well be more money into the club because of Premier League status but there's nothing to suggest that being promoted = better football. If anything, the opposite is true. Recent seasons (before relegation) have been terrible. I don't want a lifetime of simply existing at the bottom of the league because we'd be a top flight club. Entertainment matters to me. Actually, future success isn't highly unlikely. In fact, given our historical trend towards it, it is highly likely. Certainly the potential is strong enough that we should have a bloody good go. The style of football is almost completely irrelevant to league position. Once again, not many Championship sides can claim to be entertaining, you can't sign the quality. Certainly not mid table ones. You've more chance of Aston Villa playing entertaining football (whatever that actually means) in the PL than you have down here, by some distance. It might take a few years to get there, but it would be worth it in the long run. What makes you think I want a lifetime existing at the bottom of the Premier League anyway? You sound defeated in suggesting we should accept that we are a mid table Championship club now and the best we can hope for is to be 'entertained'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 9 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: Is Mark not his real name? Like mine isn't Doug? yours is "Rodney" isn't it.......sorry its Dave. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: Actually, future success isn't highly unlikely. In fact, given our historical trend towards it, it is highly likely. Certainly the potential is strong enough that we should have a bloody good go. The style of football is almost completely irrelevant to league position. Once again, not many Championship sides can claim to be entertaining, you can't sign the quality. Certainly not mid table ones. You've more chance of Aston Villa playing entertaining football (whatever that actually means) in the PL than you have down here, by some distance. It might take a few years to get there, but it would be worth it in the long run. What makes you think I want a lifetime existing at the bottom of the Premier League anyway? You sound defeated in suggesting we should accept that we are a mid table Championship club now and the best we can hope for is to be 'entertained'. But you're skipping way into the future. My preference is for entertaining football with losses and draws and a lower finish than shit football that enables us to finish higher up the league. You would rather win every game 1-0 with boring football. Whatever floats your boat. (Edit: Slight lol at "historical trend" by the way. As if that has any relevance!) Edited March 2, 2017 by bobzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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