The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[ml1dch]

31 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Yep, my gut feeling is the same.

Which is mental.

I've said before that I could understand a leave vote at the time. I didn't agree with it, not by a long shot, but I could see reasons why people would vote Leave (some good reasons, some bad reasons, but reasons nonetheless)

But now, I honestly don't understand how people can still think it's a good idea other than total ignorance. If anyone on here still thinks Leave is the right thing to do I'd be genuinely interested in their logic.

Hmm.

What has changed? There is nothing that is now known that wasn't also known two years ago.

Why was it understandable then but not now?

[snowychap]

Ken Clarke looks like someone's nicked his cigars.

[Stevo985]

3 hours ago, ml1dch said:

Hmm.

What has changed? There is nothing that is now known that wasn't also known two years ago.

Why was it understandable then but not now?

Promises have been exposed as lies, assessments have unanimously shown we’ll be worse off, leave campaigners have u turned or quit or been sacked, companies and industries have pledged to leave the country, and even if all that is put aside we’ve generally made an absolute balls up of executing it anyway. 

[andym]

4 hours ago, Chindie said:

There won't be another referendum without an extension on Article 50.

I don't think a second referendum is a good idea. Referendums are bad, for a start. Then, the question might be even more complex this time.

And then all the same problems that made the first referendum such a cluster **** still exist, if not more so. People are still ignorant, the media is still laughable in educating the electorate (and a number have to one degree or another have enjoyed pushing the line that all this is caused by the EU trying to screw us). I'd stake good money Leave wins still, even if the option on the table is taking the shittiest option going, no deal (which increasingly we're going to get anyway).

We don't need another referendum. We need some politicians with some bollocks.

Listening to 5 live on the way home from work and they had some clips of people being asked about whether there should be a 2nd referendum. More than one instance of 'we voted to leave and take back control from those unelected foreign bureaucrats who force all these rules on us'. Even now people still think the EU is pretty much Juncker sitting there thinking of ways to annoy the UK such as by telling us what shape bananas can be. 

They haven't realised that their Brexiteer heroes since the Chequers statement have basically been admitting they were completely disingenuous in the actual referendum campaign. Leadsome was on the radio this morning saying how the Chequers proposal would leave us subject to rules that we would no longer have a say in drafting. So we do currently have a say in all these rules and regulations - not what she was saying 2 years ago. IDS was on this evening, saying that there couldn't be a 'no deal' scenario because if all else fails we would revert to a deal under WTO rules, and if the EU tried any funny games then we could take them to an adjudication panel. So subject to the rules and rulings of another body - again not exactly taking back control. Predictably neither of them were called out on this.

Of course the big thing about all this 2nd referendum talk is that the Brexit lot who have banged on for the last 2 years about 'the will of the people' and how people don't want the elite experts making decisions for them are now saying that doesn't matter anymore and they know whats best.

 

 

[chrisp65]

People just refuse to think. They refuse. They were made to do thinking in school and didn't like it. But now they're adults and nobody can tell them what to do. So they wear their ignorance as a badge of honour. If we can just get rid of the bad French man everything will be nicer and easier.

Of course, once we get rid of the bad French man, it won't be easier. At that point somebody will have to tell them who else's fault everything is and how everything will be nicer and easier once we also sort them out. It might be asians, it might be single mums, Scotland, judges, unions. It might be pigeons.

 

[Chindie]

15 minutes ago, andym said:

Listening to 5 live on the way home from work and they had some clips of people being asked about whether there should be a 2nd referendum. More than one instance of 'we voted to leave and take back control from those unelected foreign bureaucrats who force all these rules on us'. Even now people still think the EU is pretty much Juncker sitting there thinking of ways to annoy the UK such as by telling us what shape bananas can be. 

They haven't realised that their Brexiteer heroes since the Chequers statement have basically been admitting they were completely disingenuous in the actual referendum campaign. Leadsome was on the radio this morning saying how the Chequers proposal would leave us subject to rules that we would no longer have a say in drafting. So we do currently have a say in all these rules and regulations - not what she was saying 2 years ago. IDS was on this evening, saying that there couldn't be a 'no deal' scenario because if all else fails we would revert to a deal under WTO rules, and if the EU tried any funny games then we could take them to an adjudication panel. So subject to the rules and rulings of another body - again not exactly taking back control. Predictably neither of them were called out on this.

Of course the big thing about all this 2nd referendum talk is that the Brexit lot who have banged on for the last 2 years about 'the will of the people' and how people don't want the elite experts making decisions for them are now saying that doesn't matter anymore and they know whats best.

 

 

Indeed. An awful lot of people still have their heads filled with the bullshit the Sun and the Heil and their evil brethren have spouted for 30 years, and all the bollocks Farage has putting out of his mouth at every chance (which sickeningly is still too often). And then you've got 2 years of the Brexit mob, including the same old faces and some new ones angling for a fast buck line the odious Mogg, pushing a line of Britain being screwed by the EU, of Remoaners stabbing the will of the people in the back, and surreptitiously spinning away, as they always wanted, from the line they peddled of a Norway deal to now wanting no deal so all costs. Leave would win again. Maybe by increased numbers as the more soft Remain vote decides they want to just get on with it, or been won over by the line the EU is playing us, or whatever.

All the Brexiteers in parliament are hot air. None know what they're talking about, all are acting in their own interest to some degree (or on the case of Leadsom, are just **** thick). IDS on WTO being a deal? That's just a complete lie. WTO IS No Deal.

It's a **** farce and the entire country is being played. And there's a cliff at the end fast approaching and the driver had forgotten what a car is.

[snowychap]

First ERG amendment passes by 305 to 302. It will be interesting if any of that 305 contains any Labour MPs.

Edit: Apparently a minister has resigned over this as they voted against it. Probably just some junior bod no one has heard of.

Edited July 16, 2018 by snowychap

[Chindie]

7 minutes ago, snowychap said:

First ERG amendment passes by 305 to 302. It will be interesting if any of that 305 contains any Labour MPs.

You'd get short odds on Hoey, surely.

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, Chindie said:

You'd get short odds on Hoey, surely.

Sure - any of the other usual suspects like Field & Mann, I wonder?

[HanoiVillan]

The 'Commons Votes' app is supposed to be pretty good for finding out quickly who voted for what. 

[snowychap]

4 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

The 'Commons Votes' app is supposed to be pretty good for finding out quickly who voted for what. 

I don't do apps.

[snowychap]

Second ERG amendment also passes by 3 votes, though 303 to 300 this time.

Four people knocked off early, I guess.

Edited July 16, 2018 by snowychap

[bickster]

37 minutes ago, snowychap said:

First ERG amendment passes by 305 to 302. It will be interesting if any of that 305 contains any Labour MPs.

Edit: Apparently a minister has resigned over this as they voted against it. Probably just some junior bod no one has heard of.

It was pro remain Guto Bebb , Defence Procurement Minister who voted against and resigned

[snowychap]

44 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Sure - any of the other usual suspects like Field & Mann, I wonder?

Field, Hoey & Stringer, it seems.

Edit: And Hopkins who is currently an Independent.

Edited July 16, 2018 by snowychap

[Chindie]

The votes tonight are absurd.

The amendment to knock off for summer early is downright obscene.

Parliament is currently an absolute disgrace, even more so than usual. Feeble MPs, a zombie robot in charge surrounded by sinister clowns and sycophants, and the country's future binned to line a few pockets.

Despicable. A new Guy Fawkes would do the country a favour.

[Chindie]

Just now, snowychap said:

Field, Hoey & Stringer, it seems.

Shocked.

[HanoiVillan]

Not a massive fan of deselection, but with Hoey in particular I think I'm now on board with making an exception. 

[ml1dch]

4 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Promises have been exposed as lies, assessments have unanimously shown we’ll be worse off, leave campaigners have u turned or quit or been sacked, companies and industries have pledged to leave the country, and even if all that is put aside we’ve generally made an absolute balls up of executing it anyway. 

As I said, what has changed from two years ago? All of that was also there in 2016 (resignations, possibly aside)

[ml1dch]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

It was pro remain Guto Bebb , Defence Procurement Minister who voted against and resigned

To quote Adam Bienkov:

"So in summary one of Theresa May’s ministers has resigned in order to support her government’s policy after the prime minister whipped her own MPs to oppose her government’s policy in order to prevent a defeat to... her government’s policy"

[snowychap]

I've seen it said that the current leader and former leader of the Lib Dems didn't participate in tonight's vote.

Not a good look if that's right.