ml1dch Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 55 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: Invented in England I think ? (The fizzy part anyway) Not quite. 16th Century France, it then became popular in England and the science behind it was established and written down by an English scientist (Christopher Merrett). Then Dom Perignon came along shortly after. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 36 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: that includes labour Uh? What have they had to do with any of this? They campaigned remain and did a bloody better job than Tories of it. Since then they've voted for article 50 along with every single other MP apart from Ken Clarke because they had to. I said before the referendum that my biggest worry about leaving the EU was that a massively neoliberal Tory gov was trying to remove all of the obstacles to their free market utopia which included EU regulation. Thankfully the Labour surge has provided another obstacle when it denied the Tories a majority and forced them to scale it back a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted September 22, 2017 Administrator Share Posted September 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Not quite. 16th Century France, it then became popular in England and the science behind it was established and written down by an English scientist (Christopher Merrett). Then Dom Perignon came along shortly after. The bottles that could take the pressure were developed in England. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 10 minutes ago, darrenm said: Uh? What have they had to do with any of this? They campaigned remain and did a bloody better job than Tories of it. Since then they've voted for article 50 along with every single other MP apart from Ken Clarke because they had to. I said before the referendum that my biggest worry about leaving the EU was that a massively neoliberal Tory gov was trying to remove all of the obstacles to their free market utopia which included EU regulation. Thankfully the Labour surge has provided another obstacle when it denied the Tories a majority and forced them to scale it back a bit. My point was that Labour would make as big a mess of it as conservatives. Both are hopeless. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Just now, Demitri_C said: My point was that Labour would make as big a mess of it as conservatives. Both are hopeless. How do you know that? Labour have Keir Starmer who by any measure is way more appropriate as brexit secretary than David Davis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 14 minutes ago, darrenm said: Uh? What have they had to do with any of this? They campaigned remain and did a bloody better job than Tories of it. Since then they've voted for article 50 along with every single other MP apart from Ken Clarke because they had to. That's not actually true, is it? It was politically sensible to vote for it, but they didn't have to. And plenty of MPs apart from Clarke didn't vote for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Just now, darrenm said: How do you know that? Labour have Keir Starmer who by any measure is way more appropriate as brexit secretary than David Davis Considering they failed in government before the conservatives came in who are also currently failing. I think its safe to say bothe parties would not be able to take us out in a positive fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, ml1dch said: That's not actually true, is it? It was politically sensible to vote for it, but they didn't have to. And plenty of MPs apart from Clarke didn't vote for it. Out of the Tories, only Ken Clarke voted against it. They would have lost anyway and then been cannon fodder for the papers, while losing all support of leavers. Absolutely no choice on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Just now, darrenm said: Out of the Tories, only Ken Clarke voted against it. They would have lost anyway and then been cannon fodder for the papers, while losing all support of leavers. Absolutely no choice on the matter. On the first point yes, but that isn't the same as "every single other MP", is it? 47 Labour MPs voted against it. Which is impressive if they actually had "no choice". That's more than a fifth of the PLP who thought they actually did have a choice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted September 22, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted September 22, 2017 I wouldn't give Labour too much credit on the front of forcing the Tories to back down from a bonfire of the regulations. For a start it might still happen. Then you have to consider there are Tories that understand, in their neoliberalness, the necessity of market access for business and have fought that corner. Then there's the business case in it's own merit. Lots of companies have made it clear there must be market access and that means the regulations stay. And then there's the Tories wider fragmentation on Brexit. Just the cabinet has about 4 different views in significant positions alone. The election certainly plays a part, but I wouldn't credit Labour with victory there at all, it simply isn't the case. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Considering they failed in government before the conservatives came in who are also currently failing. I think its safe to say bothe parties would not be able to take us out in a positive fashion. Mate where do you get this stuff from? In what way did the (vastly different, might as well be a different party) last Labour government fail? The GFS which was nothing to do with them? Before that happened public spending and borrowing was sustainable and was following IMF recommendations for economic growth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Just now, darrenm said: Mate where do you get this stuff from? In what way did the (vastly different, might as well be a different party) last Labour government fail? The GFS which was nothing to do with them? Before that happened public spending and borrowing was sustainable and was following IMF recommendations for economic growth. What do you mean where do i get this stuff from? If labour didnt fail they wouldnt have lost the last 3 elections. Oh and how about this if they didnt fail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, ml1dch said: On the first point yes, but that isn't the same as "every single other MP", is it? 47 Labour MPs voted against it. Which is impressive if they actually had "no choice". That's more than a fifth of the PLP who thought they actually did have a choice. I thought it was obvious I was referring to only Labour and Conservative, and since Labour was the point of reference, 'every single other MP' means 'every single other MP from the Conservative party'. If they have any ambitions of forming a government, no they didn't have any choice. The 47 who voted against the article 50 bill were wrong to do so. It was the wrong time to find a backbone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted September 22, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted September 22, 2017 I'm loathe to defend that stupid letter, especially as it's off topic, but it's hard to blame Labour with a straight face for the impact of a global crisis that wasn't caused by them. Still, people do. That don't get it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: What do you mean where do i get this stuff from? If labour didnt fail they wouldnt have lost the last 3 elections. Oh and how about this if they didnt fail? For the answer to that one have a look at what I said about the GFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Just now, darrenm said: For the answer to that one have a look at what I said about the GFS If it was the conservatives people would be blaming them no the GFS. too easy to throw that card out when labour made so many mistakes at the time and not having any ideas to solve the problems. We pay them to get us out of the mess and they failed. But the original point is that we would be under no better situation under labour with brexit. Both parties would struggle in my view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted September 22, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted September 22, 2017 Nonsense. Had it been the Tories the people blaming them would be as wrong as those blaming Labour now. As for Brexit, it is and will remain a **** stupid idea and whoever was in charge would be **** it up. Because the only ways not to will not fly for the Brexit brigade. Largely because be best one means giving them the finger and saying don't be stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 11 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: We pay them to get us out of the mess and they failed. They actually did get us out of the mess. They did everything they had to. It could have been a whole lot worse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 34 minutes ago, Chindie said: Nonsense. Had it been the Tories the people blaming them would be as wrong as those blaming Labour now. As for Brexit, it is and will remain a **** stupid idea and whoever was in charge would be **** it up. Because the only ways not to will not fly for the Brexit brigade. Largely because be best one means giving them the finger and saying don't be stupid. Disagree with first part but agree with 2nd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 34 minutes ago, darrenm said: They actually did get us out of the mess. They did everything they had to. It could have been a whole lot worse. I would disagree but hey ho differing views and all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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