The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[mjmooney]

10 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

I don’t really know enough about European politics to argue with her but haven’t there been a few fights in some European Parliaments , Italy and greece are two I can think of off the top of my head ( might be the only two tbf ) 

Oh, I'm sure there have. He's very excitable, is johnny foreigner. But I would imagine this is still a (possibly frequent) aberration, whereas the catcall shouting match is kind of the rule in the Commons. PMQs in particular is pretty gladiatorial. Like I say, I'm not saying either system is 'better' than the other, but it does indicate a possibly important difference in political culture between Britain and the EU. 

[hippo]

This lesson from all of this, should be you never get 100% of what you wish for. Same with our own political parties - all of them have policies I don't agree with and probably always will - that doesn't mean I don't vote - at its extremes it might mean voting for the least bad. 

 

[ml1dch]

29 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Oh, I'm sure there have. He's very excitable, is johnny foreigner. But I would imagine this is still a (possibly frequent) aberration, whereas the catcall shouting match is kind of the rule in the Commons. PMQs in particular is pretty gladiatorial. Like I say, I'm not saying either system is 'better' than the other, but it does indicate a possibly important difference in political culture between Britain and the EU. 

Isn't it supposed to be the case that the gap between the benches in the Commons is the length of two swords plus one inch (to stop MPs from stabbing each other), or is that one of those apocryphal tales?

[mjmooney]

5 minutes ago, hippo said:

This lesson from all of this, should be you never get 100% of what you wish for. Same with our own political parties - all of them have policies I don't agree with and probably always will - that doesn't mean I don't vote - at its extremes it might mean voting for the least bad. 

 

I always vote for the least bad, i.e. Labour. 

Sometimes they are more less bad than others. There was a brief period during the end of the Blair/Brown era, when the LibDems started to look closer to my political philosophy, but it was a false dawn. 

As it stands, it a choice between an incompetent Labour that at least has its heart in the right place and equally incompetent Tories whose philosophy is repugnant. 

[bickster]

13 minutes ago, hippo said:

This lesson from all of this, should be you never get 100% of what you wish for. Same with our own political parties - all of them have policies I don't agree with and probably always will - that doesn't mean I don't vote - at its extremes it might mean voting for the least bad. 

 

There is one over-riding issue for me right now begins with B

This rules out both Tory and Labour

It leaves the Lib Dems and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could piss on them.

So I then default to Greens or Spoilt Paper.

A spoilt paper isn't consciously not voting, it's consciously saying all the candidates are shite. I've always been in favour of a "None of the Above" option on any ballot paper and if None of the Above wins, the election is re-run and the original candidates are excluded (they've had their chance and the electorate rejected them)

[snowychap]

 

[tonyh29]

59 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

I always vote for the least bad, i.e. Labour. 

Sometimes they are more less bad than others. There was a brief period during the end of the Blair/Brown era, when the LibDems started to look closer to my political philosophy, but it was a false dawn. 

As it stands, it a choice between an incompetent Labour that at least has its heart in the right place and equally incompetent Tories whose philosophy is repugnant. 

can Labour always be "least bad"  ? that suggests a kind of closed mind , in regards to the Torys ( not a dig , just a question)

I understand VT is predominately ABT  but the kind of closed shop would never consider voting for them  "just because " seems strange ... I know a fair few people who were taken in by Blair and switched allegiances (if they ever had them)  and voted for him , I don't see this switch ever happening with the active posters on here should a snake oil salesman take over the Conservative party  ...

I'm sure someone would say "back at you"  .. it's true I didn't vote for Blair , I think I considered it though and then just didn't bother voting   ..I have voted Lib Dem  once before though wayyyyy before the Clegg bandwagon that was going to make him PM

 

[mjmooney]

26 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

can Labour always be "least bad"  ? that suggests a kind of closed mind , in regards to the Torys ( not a dig , just a question)

I understand VT is predominately ABT  but the kind of closed shop would never consider voting for them  "just because " seems strange ... 

It's not strange at all. What they stand for remains constant. If the Tories suddenly switched their policies to public ownership of the nation's utilities, a support of trades union rights, an end to tax dodges for the filthy rich, public spending on health, education and social care rather than nuclear weapons, and a commitment to environmental issues, I'd vote for them in a heartbeat. 

Not going to happen, is it? 

Edited December 6, 2018 by mjmooney

[Stevo985]

2 hours ago, mjmooney said:

I always vote for the least bad, i.e. Labour. 

Yep.

Every general election I tell my family I'm voting for which word removed is less of a word removed than all the other words removed.

[chrisp65]

I've tried voting 'least bad' and it still rewards incompetence and dishonesty.

My local Labour candidates recently have been shockingly poor. Not only thick, but wilfully thick and quite condescending. Last few elections I've voted Plaid as a broadly leftie sort of party with some good ideas. Most recently they've proven to be as hypocritical as Labour, better organised and better communicators, but playing politics to a level of blatant hypocrisy. So to vote for them at the next opportunity would be to endorse that.

The local Green candidate was, unfortunately, just a hippy dreamer. He just wanted us all to just stop using cars and plastic and electricity right now and set up our own knitting communes. Utterly detached from the reality of people that have jobs and families. I'm not against 'green', but I am against a pillock who thinks we can just live on sunshine and hugs.

Saying that, I'll never vote tory whilst there's still breath in my body and a hole in my arse.

 

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

It's not strange at all. What they stand for remains constant. If the Tories suddenly switched their policies to public ownership of the nation's utilities, a support of trades union rights, an end to tax dodges for the filthy rich, public spending on health, education and social care rather than nuclear weapons, and a commitment to environmental issues, I'd vote for them in a heartbeat. 

Not going to happen, is it? 

haven't they stopped a lot of the tax doges ..more than Labour ever did ( at the risk of an but )  , Utlities etc again Labour been there done that last time they were in power  , I believe Corbyn has plans to bring these back under govt control but frankly I wouldn't believe him if he told me the sky was blue  .. Nuclear weapons is still a Labour policy , even if Corbyn is against them  .. Environment , Gove has implemented quite a lot of new policy there hasn't he (banning products with microbeads, pesticides that harm bees ,sales of ivory products; installing CCTV cameras in slaughterhouses tougher penalties for cruelty towards animals ) 

 

I just don't see then being that different from each other on the whole  , more so since May also stole half of her policies from Ed Miliband 

[mjmooney]

Unfortunately I can't find it, but there was a good piece by Alan Bennett about how he went into his local post office, in a rather bad mood after a Tory election victory, and heard some woman doing the "Oh, they're all the same" spiel. He went off on one, to the effect of "NO. THEY. ARE. BLOODY. NOT". And I agree with him. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by mjmooney

[ml1dch]

Don't worry Brits in Europe, the Government's got your back.

Quote

If UK nationals in the EU were unable to continue to live their lives in the EU as they do now in a no deal scenario and returned to the UK to live, there are a number of steps the government would consider to address concerns that they have raised. This includes access to healthcare, education, benefits, and housing. We recognise that these would be an important part of a transition back to life in the UK

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2018-12-06/HCWS1152/

Yes, our policies might end up forcing you out of your jobs and homes, but we'll try and keep a school place open for your kids.

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Don't worry Brits in Europe, the Government's got your back.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2018-12-06/HCWS1152/

Yes, our policies might end up forcing you out of your jobs and homes, but we'll try and keep a school place open for your kids.

That they would be entitled to anyway!

[ml1dch]

8.3%* of Lib Dem MPs have just resigned the whip to vote in favour of the deal.

*1 MP, Stephen Lloyd, Eastbourne

[snowychap]

 

[hippo]

6 hours ago, bickster said:

There is one over-riding issue for me right now begins with B

This rules out both Tory and Labour

It leaves the Lib Dems and I wouldn't trust them as far as I could piss on them.

So I then default to Greens or Spoilt Paper.

A spoilt paper isn't consciously not voting, it's consciously saying all the candidates are shite. I've always been in favour of a "None of the Above" option on any ballot paper and if None of the Above wins, the election is re-run and the original candidates are excluded (they've had their chance and the electorate rejected them)

Surley the overidding issues start after Brexit. We are no longer have to comply with the EU. so what laws relax or change. - that worries me more.

What MPs vote on next week ...is the terms of us leaving....not what laws follow.

 

 

 

[bickster]

5 minutes ago, hippo said:

Surley the overidding issues start after Brexit. We are no longer have to comply with the EU. so what laws relax or change. - that worries me more.

What MPs vote on next week ...is the terms of us leaving....not what laws follow.

 

 

 

Which EU laws won’t we have to comply with?

Thats the utter fallacy of this. To do any trade with the EU you have to be compliant with their rules. So unless we’re going full on head over the cliff we'll have their laws in the majority of instances, there’s few that can be changed in terms of trade and currently most of their laws are to do with trade.

So as you see this makes jack shit difference. The other stuff we can change anyway

i see no party I can vote for, this idea of least best only applies if you agree with a high percentage of their polices. No party does that for me.

[bickster]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

 

Nah, they look like future Tories, eat them for all I care

[hippo]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Which EU laws won’t we have to comply with?

Thats the utter fallacy of this. To do any trade with the EU you have to be compliant with their rules. So unless we’re going full on head over the cliff we'll have their laws in the majority of instances, there’s few that can be changed in terms of trade and currently most of their laws are to do with trade.

So as you see this makes jack shit difference. The other stuff we can change anyway

i see no party I can vote for, this idea of least best only applies if you agree with a high percentage of their polices. No party does that for me.

So what policies would you like to see a uk party offer....?