blandy Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 45 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: But you should. Because ultimately, this is politics. You might not want it to be, but it is, and by saying 'well Tories may be worse, but of course the Tory media don't say that, and Labour shouldn't point it out, they should just accept that they're bad' you're asking Labour to play politics at a higher difficulty level. No, absolutely not. This is infuriating - my apparent inability to get across what I mean. Because I've failed I'll try and simplify (it's not meant to be condescending, but I'm lost as to how else to get my point across) 1. This is a discussion (ongoing) about anti-semitism within Labour, in the Labour thread. Rrom all that I've seen, generally, Labour has a problem with it. 2. I have commented/put my opinion on Labour's problem and their reaction to it. 3. Related, but not something I've commented on, more than tangentially, or am interested in saying much on, is various newspapers, supporters of tories, Israel gov't apologists etc. making up or exaggerating things for personal or political gain. Sure, they have done. But I'm personally conversing about actual anti-semitism and how it's being handled. 4. If someone wants to start a thread or discussion about anti-semitism by the hard right, by the tories, by whoever - go ahead. It's irrelevant, in my eyes, to Labour's own issue - whether it's much worse or less bad is utterly irrelevant to solving Labour's problem. There's not a cat in hell's chance of me ever voting for or supporting the tories or hard right. Labour on the other hand, I have (in the past) voted for. I would desperately like to get the tories out and a competent, capable alternative is (IMO) absolutely not available right now. I would really like Labour to be a competent, capable alternative and rooting out their anti-semitism (whether larger or smaller than someone else's) would be part of that. It's not a higher or lower standard. The tories are horrible. Windrush cases are a national disgrace. The "hostile environment" is vile. The tories are dead to me, they're of no interest other than to get rid of them. Labour, despite (in my eyes) being an utter shambles under Corbyn, remains of interest because if they get their shit together they could be part of the solution. Currently they absolutely aren't that (in my eyes). 5. My posts are not tribal. I'm just not interested in tribal politics. I don't want to listen to sheep burp out their leader's or party's lines. Comparison with, or excusing or commending by comparison with X, Y, or Z is of no interest at all to me. Calling criticis of labour "tories", "centrists", making up false accusations against them (recent example being Rachel Riley being accused by Corbynite knobhead sheep burper skwaukbox of co-ordinating her criticisms via meetings with tory HQ) - it's hugely counter-productive. It's Trumpian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 28 minutes ago, peterms said: Surely the point is that to claim to be both a founder of Heaven 17 and a sound expert is a contradiction in terms? It was a foolish thing to do. He'll be crushed by the wheels of industry for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, blandy said: It was a foolish thing to do. He'll be crushed by the wheels of industry for it. I had to look that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, peterms said: I had to look that up. Hey-La-Who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, peterms said: I had to look that up. I only know 3, Bicks already mentioned the first, those were the other two. I get Heaven 17 confused with Spandau Ballet, as well. I blame Springfield Bitter, Brew XI and Ansells for the state of my 80s memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 17 minutes ago, blandy said: It was a foolish thing to do. He'll be crushed by the wheels of industry for it. (And That's No Lie) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, blandy said: I only know 3, Bicks already mentioned the first I think we've set him off. I bet he's singing along as we speak. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, peterms said: I think we've set him off. I bet he's singing along as we speak. Nah, not really a fan (Fascist Grrove thang aside) tbh but the superstar 80's DJ in me seems to remember this rubbish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, bickster said: Fascist Grrove thang aside It's set off an earworm in my head. "Brothers, Sisters..." And resurfaced memories of stupid conversations "How's your thang?" and such like in the bar of the Ring O'Bells. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 13 minutes ago, bickster said: Nah, not really a fan (Fascist Grrove thang aside) tbh but the superstar 80's DJ in me seems to remember this rubbish 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said: This is the best I can do to show the reality. Of the two DJ's there, I'm the one who is actually doing some work (Or the one showing his arse) And that's the State Ballroom, famous in Liverpool and famous because Letter to Brezhnev was filmed there 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 36 minutes ago, blandy said: No, absolutely not. This is infuriating - my apparent inability to get across what I mean. Because I've failed I'll try and simplify (it's not meant to be condescending, but I'm lost as to how else to get my point across) 1. This is a discussion (ongoing) about anti-semitism within Labour, in the Labour thread. Rrom all that I've seen, generally, Labour has a problem with it. 2. I have commented/put my opinion on Labour's problem and their reaction to it. 3. Related, but not something I've commented on, more than tangentially, or am interested in saying much on, is various newspapers, supporters of tories, Israel gov't apologists etc. making up or exaggerating things for personal or political gain. Sure, they have done. But I'm personally conversing about actual anti-semitism and how it's being handled. 4. If someone wants to start a thread or discussion about anti-semitism by the hard right, by the tories, by whoever - go ahead. It's irrelevant, in my eyes, to Labour's own issue - whether it's much worse or less bad is utterly irrelevant to solving Labour's problem. There's not a cat in hell's chance of me ever voting for or supporting the tories or hard right. Labour on the other hand, I have (in the past) voted for. I would desperately like to get the tories out and a competent, capable alternative is (IMO) absolutely not available right now. I would really like Labour to be a competent, capable alternative and rooting out their anti-semitism (whether larger or smaller than someone else's) would be part of that. It's not a higher or lower standard. The tories are horrible. Windrush cases are a national disgrace. The "hostile environment" is vile. The tories are dead to me, they're of no interest other than to get rid of them. Labour, despite (in my eyes) being an utter shambles under Corbyn, remains of interest because if they get their shit together they could be part of the solution. Currently they absolutely aren't that (in my eyes). 5. My posts are not tribal. I'm just not interested in tribal politics. I don't want to listen to sheep burp out their leader's or party's lines. Comparison with, or excusing or commending by comparison with X, Y, or Z is of no interest at all to me. Calling criticis of labour "tories", "centrists", making up false accusations against them (recent example being Rachel Riley being accused by Corbynite knobhead sheep burper skwaukbox of co-ordinating her criticisms via meetings with tory HQ) - it's hugely counter-productive. It's Trumpian. Point 1 - agreed, with the caveat that I don't think all of the examples given of anti-semitism during 2017-2018 were anti-semitism. However, yes, there are absolutely anti-semites who support Labour (and many of the examples were). Point 2 - absolutely. Points 3, 4 & 5 - here is the problem. Parties have identities. These identities are long-lasting and hard-wearing, outliving astonishing amounts of contrary evidence. Labour are always seen as the party who 'have the interests of people like me at heart'; Tories are always seen as more competent at managing the economy. However, it is possible to add to these ideas, and create new long-lasting stereotypes. One idea that has gained a frustrating amount of currency, in the last two years, is that Labour is 'the party of anti-semitism', which has turned for some commentators into 'Labour is institutionally anti-semitic' and led to Dan Hodges stating that 'anyone who remains a Labour member is a racist'. This isn't true, but it is the cumulative result of lots and lots of people taking the decision that you are describing, which is to talk about Labour members who are anti-semitic or otherwise racist, or who have said anti-semitic or racist things, and not talk about Conservatives or Kippers or other rightists who have done the same. The conversation on anti-semitism is that it is a Labour problem. Someone who arrived in the country in the summer of 2017 with no prior knowledge of British politics, but who read the newspapers and watched the talkshows, would have formed the strong opinion that a] the Labour party is anti-semitic, b] that Labour members constantly say racist things, and that c] the Conservative party has a much better record on racism. None of this is true, and it's not unreasonable to say so. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 10 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Points 3, 4 & 5 - here is the problem. Parties have identities. These identities are long-lasting and hard-wearing, outliving astonishing amounts of contrary evidence. Labour are always seen as the party who 'have the interests of people like me at heart'; Tories are always seen as more competent at managing the economy. However, it is possible to add to these ideas, and create new long-lasting stereotypes. One idea that has gained a frustrating amount of currency, in the last two years, is that Labour is 'the party of anti-semitism', which has turned for some commentators into 'Labour is institutionally anti-semitic' and led to Dan Hodges stating that 'anyone who remains a Labour member is a racist'. This isn't true, but it is the cumulative result of lots and lots of people taking the decision that you are describing, which is to talk about Labour members who are anti-semitic or otherwise racist, or who have said anti-semitic or racist things, and not talk about Conservatives or Kippers or other rightists who have done the same. The conversation on anti-semitism is that it is a Labour problem. Someone who arrived in the country in the summer of 2017 with no prior knowledge of British politics, but who read the newspapers and watched the talkshows, would have formed the strong opinion that a] the Labour party is anti-semitic, b] that Labour members constantly say racist things, and that c] the Conservative party has a much better record on racism. None of this is true, and it's not unreasonable to say so. 4 That's not really a great defence of your whataboutism though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, bickster said: That's not really a great defence of your whataboutism though Sorry, can you be a bit more specific? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: Sorry, can you be a bit more specific? In a nutshell, your defence of anti-semitism in the Labour Party was to say it's worse in the Tory Party. That is the very essence of whataboutism It's a deflection tactic Quote Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument,[1][2][3] which in the United States is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.[4][5][6] When criticisms were leveled at the Soviet Union during the Cold War, the Soviet response would often be "What about..." followed by an event in the Western world.[7][8][9] Wiki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, bickster said: In a nutshell, your defence of anti-semitism in the Labour Party was to say it's worse in the Tory Party. That is the very essence of whataboutism It's a deflection tactic Wiki I'm not attempting to make a 'defence of anti-semitism in the Labour Party'. I don't defend anti-semitism in any way whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: But you should. Because ultimately, this is politics. You might not want it to be, but it is, and by saying 'well Tories may be worse, but of course the Tory media don't say that, and Labour shouldn't point it out, they should just accept that they're bad' you're asking Labour to play politics at a higher difficulty level. Then I must have completely misunderstood this point, you appear to be saying that Tories are worse and that Labour should point it out. That is the very essence of whataboutism. Labour should put their own house in order before criticising anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 minute ago, bickster said: Then I must have completely misunderstood this point, you appear to be saying that Tories are worse and that Labour should point it out. That is the very essence of whataboutism. Labour should put their own house in order before criticising anyone else. It is possible for Labour to both point out examples of Tory racism and to address their own internal issues; indeed, for them to do anything else would be negligent. There's no possibility for the issue to be definitively solved, forever, so demanding perfection from A before A can criticise B is to demand that A never speaks at all. Would you genuinely prefer a world in which Labour politicians silently accepted racism from Tories, because they couldn't be sure they had weeded out every last anti-semite in their party? I can't say that seems like a better world to me, whatever Wikipedia says. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 Just now, HanoiVillan said: It is possible for Labour to both point out examples of Tory racism and to address their own internal issues; indeed, for them to do anything else would be negligent. There's no possibility for the issue to be definitively solved, forever, so demanding perfection from A before A can criticise B is to demand that A never speaks at all. Would you genuinely prefer a world in which Labour politicians silently accepted racism from Tories, because they couldn't be sure they had weeded out every last anti-semite in their party? I can't say that seems like a better world to me, whatever Wikipedia says. No, it really isn't possible because it's instantly batted back and no one gets anywhere. The issue gets lost in a world of whataboutism Also, you'd maybe, just maybe have a point if Labour had actually taken steps to combat their own anti-Semitic problem but they haven't effectively done anything, not one thing. It's sheer hypocrisy and that's exactly how it comes across 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, bickster said: This is the best I can do to show the reality. Of the two DJ's there, I'm the one who is actually doing some work (Or the one showing his arse) And that's the State Ballroom, famous in Liverpool and famous because Letter to Brezhnev was filmed there Looks like Bicks was searching for some company... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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