Popular Post chrisp65 Posted January 20, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 20, 2019 I've written loads of versions of responses on these anti semitism points so many times. But the new one way rules make it really difficult, so I usually deete rather than post. If you don't agree with the political state of Israel, you risk being called out as an anti semite. There are 570,000 real signed up Labour Party members and so all practical common sense tells you some of them will be racists pricks. Some will be too thick to understand the difference between jews and Israel and will bumble in to racism by ignorance. Some people will have twitter accounts that look like Labour support that are only out to cause trouble. It'll be happily and readily swallowed whole as 'Corbynite'. Rachel Riley has advised people to do research and fact check and give people some benefit of the doubt as they hear tropes and presume there is a grain of truth but really they need to do some proper multiple source research of their own. Which is an utterly decent and right thing to advise. Always. In the same interview she says she saw an anti semitic poster on a bus shelter and knew it was Jeremy Corbyn that had allowed that to happen. She also said she didn't 'look jewish'. It's bloody complicated in some ways as there are people, even on this messageboard, who are willing to use something as massive as the holocaust to score cheap political points. We've all seen them pop up like a bitcoin advert or bot whenever the subject is aired. It's also not in the slightest bit complicated, all racists are pricks. But hey, when asked about the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians, Riley assured us she personally was a nice person. Which I think under IHRA conflates people and politics? Luckily, the rules only appear to fully apply to one side. Personally, I didn't know she was jewish heritage and in the nicest way possible, I couldn't care less. People should be whatever they feel comfortable happy and content being. Embrace it all. Fascinating subject, Israel. Just really difficult to get involved without one side or the other making accusations of people they perceive to lean in favour of the other side. Presuming twitter accounts of strangers prove anything about Corbyn is right up there in the league table of dumb. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 20, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 20, 2019 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: I've written loads of versions of responses on these anti semitism points so many times. But the new one way rules make it really difficult, so I usually deete rather than post. If you don't agree with the political state of Israel, you risk being called out as an anti semite. There are 570,000 real signed up Labour Party members and so all practical common sense tells you some of them will be racists pricks. Some will be too thick to understand the difference between jews and Israel and will bumble in to racism by ignorance..... ... really difficult to get involved without one side or the other making accusations of people they perceive to lean in favour of the other side. Presuming twitter accounts of strangers prove anything about Corbyn is right up there in the league table of dumb. I share your view on much of what you've posted. I think where I look at it a bit differently is that there seems to me, even within the labour disciplinary system, and within their membership and supporters a bit of a blind spot. There's also denial of the problem. You're right that within the half a million signed up members there's bound, statistically to be a lump of numpties and racists. So just statistically there's an issue with racism and anti-semitism. There's also some of the more strident pro-palestinian (not just in Labour) supporters and espousers of opposition to the appalling way Israel's gov't has and does act towards those people, a spill over into anti-semitism that's really harmful to the valid cause of wanting better for Palestine. And equally there's a clear move by some supporters of the Israeli Gov't and likely that Gov't itself to try to deflect valid criticsim of their deeds with "anti-semitism" when it's no such thing. I kind of think that no-one really could argue with that. The contentious bit, for me is that a lot of people seem so keen to "support" Corbyn, or Palestinian causes that they have double standards, they'll turn a blind eye, or worse jump on any/all genuine criticism of anti-semitism within Labour or by numpty supporters as "politically motivated by Israeli sympathisers/tories/centrists" and not address the criticism. They see it as people using or "making up" incidents to attack their beloved leader, or his "project". UKIP people did the same a while back with their numpties, and they're now turning more and more racist as a part consequence of this blindness. It's ruinous, particularly for a party with their (self set) values to ignore or deny the problem. It's not being dealt with in a non-emotive way, it's all got caught up in tangled sympathies and support for Corbyn, for Palestine, and hate for the tories. It's just sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 4 hours ago, blandy said: I don't understand your interpretation. If it is manufactured (made up) how can it also be a genuine problem? Are you saying "yes there's a problem, but it's not as bad as being made out, or are you saying (more worryingly) that the claim it's a made up storm about nothing is genuine? What am I missing about, or in reading, your post? There is some antisemitism among a range of religious and political groups in the UK, and it would be unrealistic to think that the Labour Party is going to be completely free of that. At the same time, it is clear that antisemitism is more prevalent on the right wing, though you wouldn't think it from reading the press, with the endless smears of Labour. We know that there is a co-ordinated campaign involving the Israeli government and many pressure groups to seek to stifle criticism of Israel by falsely equating antisemitism and antizionism. It is reasonable to say that there may be some degree of problem of antisemitism in the Labour Party (though less than for example the Conservative Party), and also that the campaign that has been running over the last three years to paint Labour as rife with antisemites is manufactured for deliberate and cynical ends. Quote When it comes to antisemitism, the very rightwing lead: 52% (46-58%) in this group hold at least one antisemitic attitude, in contrast to 30% in the general population; and 13% (10-17%) of the very right-wing hold 5-8 antisemitic attitudes, in contrast to 3.6% in the general population. Among those who identify as fairly right-wing or slightly right-of-centre, the maximal diffusion of antisemitic attitudes (the percentage of people with at least one attitude) is slightly elevated but not the stronger forms of antisemitism. The very left-wing is indistinguishable from the general population and from the political centre in this regard. In general, it should be said that, with the exception of the very right-wing, there is little differentiation across the political spectrum in relation to the prevalence of antisemitic attitudes. However, in relation to anti-Israel attitudes, the very left-wing lead: 78% (75-82%) in this group endorse at least one anti-Israel attitude, in contrast to 56% in the general population, and 23% (19-26%) hold 6-9 attitudes, in contrast to 9% in the general population. Elevated levels of anti-Israel attitudes are also observed in other groups on the political left: the fairly left-wing and those slightly left-of-centre. The lowest level of anti-Israel attitudes is observed in the political centre and among those who are slightly right-of-centre or fairly right-wing. The very right-wing segment of the population is peculiar: its level of anti-Israel attitudes does not appear to be elevated in a significant way when it is measured as a proportion holding at least one anti-Israel attitude, but when it is measured as a proportion holding strong anti-Israel attitudes, then the level of anti-Israel attitudes in this group is clearly heightened. In general, most of the political right is rather close to the general population, and only very slightly higher than the political centre. From this publication. It is exactly this differentiation between holding antisemitic and anti-Israeli views that the Israeli government wishes to elide. We shouldn't let them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 20 hours ago, blandy said: I don't understand your interpretation. If it is manufactured (made up) how can it also be a genuine problem? Are you saying "yes there's a problem, but it's not as bad as being made out, or are you saying (more worryingly) that the claim it's a made up storm about nothing is genuine? What am I missing about, or in reading, your post? What's manufactured? The column inches, day after day, attacking the geezer that might yet scupper the tax wheezes employed by the Barclay Brothers, Viscount Rothermere and the offshore owners of the Guardian. He might even have the audacity to scrap the special tax code bestowed upon the Murdoch empire by Thatcher, that neither Brown or Blair saw fit to question After all the effort these mega rich tax dodgers put into selling Brexit to the populace to avoid the 2019 EU tax harmonisation, the last thing they want is the gravy train derailed by the beardie weirdy that's pledged to stem the flow of cash to tax havens. There is a story with haters in the Labour ranks, but it's not worthy of the landslide of coverage it garnered. You think there's some degree of congruence between the real damage inflicted on the country, services and populace and the flak from the media the perpetrators receive? If Corbyn had been as thoroughly skinned as Rees-Mogg was by James O'Brien, revealing JRM as the psychopathic shyster he is, it would have been front page news for most of the papers. The Mail would have got a week's worth of headlines out of it. You seem to think otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 Do I? What I think is that Corbyn (like May) is a terrible leader. I think he has poor judgement, I think he's a hypocrit, I think he's as rigidly stuck to his personal world view as May is to hers. I think he's associated himself with some terrible people. I think the many of same criticisms about various past and present tory leaders. I think some of the media criticisms of the Labour party and leader are valid and some are not. Some are motivated by self interest of press owners, some from political outlook and some from genuine revulsion at aspects of Corbyn's conduct etc. So it is poosible to recognise there's self motivated and political criticism of Labour/Corbyn of the type you say I think otherwsie about, but also to see that he has massive flaws and deserves a significant part of the criticism. I don't think that "he's not a tory" lets him off the hook for those flaws, but to quote you "You seem to think otherwise". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 On 19/01/2019 at 18:46, bickster said: Cue the jokes but it's quite a serious accusation (try and ignore who they turned down). And yes its the founder member of The Human League, Heaven 17 and BEF and decades-long sound engineer He sounds like a nice chap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 17 hours ago, peterms said: There is some antisemitism among a range of religious and political groups in the UK, and it would be unrealistic to think that the Labour Party is going to be completely free of that. At the same time, it is clear that antisemitism is more prevalent on the right wing, though you wouldn't think it from reading the press, with the endless smears of Labour. We know that there is a co-ordinated campaign involving the Israeli government and many pressure groups to seek to stifle criticism of Israel by falsely equating antisemitism and antizionism. It is reasonable to say that there may be some degree of problem of antisemitism in the Labour Party (though less than for example the Conservative Party), .... "They're worse than us" is not an excuse not to get your house in order, or to deny there is a problem, or blame it all on tories/Israel/Zionists/whoever and it's not an excuse to turn a blind eye to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, blandy said: I don't think that "he's not a tory" lets him off the hook for those flaws, but to quote you "You seem to think otherwise". 26 minutes ago, Xann said: There is a story with haters in the Labour ranks, but it's not worthy of the landslide of coverage it garnered. It's the Tories that are let off the hook. Look at the state the country's in because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 On 19/01/2019 at 18:46, bickster said: Cue the jokes but it's quite a serious accusation (try and ignore who they turned down). And yes its the founder member of The Human League, Heaven 17 and BEF and decades-long sound engineer I'm interested in how on earth he can say or know this. It sounds like rubbish to me. The TV audio feed from the different people on a TV panel programme is (and was for this one) all set at a level where the TV viewer has a same level for all the sound. - otherwise the viewer is going to be dicking about with the volume control on the telly, get annoyed and switch off or over. If he was watching on his telly, then he cannot possibly know the level set for Abbott's mic. Now it's theoretically possible that the studio/hall audio level for when Abbott spoke was "turned down" each time she spoke, or her mic amp was set to a lower gain and so the audience would hear her more quietly Though there's no way yer man could know this (as an expert or not) from watching on telly. Perhaps he was at the recording in the audience? Agian, though if the sound was turned down for Abbott the/any studio audience member could say they can't hear her clearly. Further it is human nature if something is a bit quiet to listen more intently, thus having the opposite effect to that claimed. In essence I call bullshit.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, Xann said: It's the Tories that are let off the hook. Look at the state the country's in because of it. Oh yeah, the tories are let off the hook. Definitely. No argument there. But it's not because the Daily Heil has stuff about anti-Semitism in Corbyn's labour - they're a tory paper. Ditto other press. And it's not because some "haters" within Labour don't rate or dislike Corbyn. At the moment they're being let off the hook largely because of Brexit filling almost all the news coverage. Not directed at you, but I think Labour, or Corbynites are making a huge mistake. They've turned to blaming or attacking the media or the BBC, anyone and everything and they're almost not focused on the tories at all. Of all the many criticisms of Corbyn, his ineffectiveness and lack of competence is probably the most to blame for "letting the tories off the hook". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Just now, blandy said: ... his ineffectiveness and lack of competence is probably the most to blame for "letting the tories off the hook". I love you, but you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 54 minutes ago, blandy said: "They're worse than us" is not an excuse not to get your house in order, or to deny there is a problem, or blame it all on tories/Israel/Zionists/whoever and it's not an excuse to turn a blind eye to it. Agreed. It is however a reason to scrutinise carefully claims that the problem is greater in Labour than elsewhere, understand the possible motives of those who are trying to exaggerate the issue, and to try to separate fact from fiction. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 39 minutes ago, Xann said: I love you, but you're wrong. Ditto. Damnit, am I? Feck. It's happened before, so I could well be. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 14 minutes ago, peterms said: Agreed. It is however a reason to scrutinise carefully claims that the problem is greater in Labour than elsewhere, understand the possible motives of those who are trying to exaggerate the issue, and to try to separate fact from fiction. Definitely. I neither know nor care whether "elsewhere" is better or worse, and nor should Labour. If it is treated as a political thing, then it's already being handled wrongly, IMO. These people are saying these bad things about us because tories/Zionists... is the absolutely wrong starting point. It's true in some instances, sure. Look at complaints. Deal with the genuine ones. Change and act promptly and as necessary. For fake, over-hyped or whatever ones - respond calmly with factual rebuttal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, coda said: He sounds like a nice chap Really not sure what your point is there. Is it that Martyn Ware used the word Jewish so he must be racist? Do you think any of those tweets contain Anti-semitism? Daniel Sugerman, journalist of the Jewish Chronical is questioning Martyn Ware's credential to be a "Sound Expert", which is pretty much a well-documented career. Daniel Sugerman is using whataboutery to deflect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 1 hour ago, blandy said: I'm interested in how on earth he can say or know this. It sounds like rubbish to me. The TV audio feed from the different people on a TV panel programme is (and was for this one) all set at a level where the TV viewer has a same level for all the sound. - otherwise the viewer is going to be dicking about with the volume control on the telly, get annoyed and switch off or over. If he was watching on his telly, then he cannot possibly know the level set for Abbott's mic. Now it's theoretically possible that the studio/hall audio level for when Abbott spoke was "turned down" each time she spoke, or her mic amp was set to a lower gain and so the audience would hear her more quietly Though there's no way yer man could know this (as an expert or not) from watching on telly. Perhaps he was at the recording in the audience? Agian, though if the sound was turned down for Abbott the/any studio audience member could say they can't hear her clearly. Further it is human nature if something is a bit quiet to listen more intently, thus having the opposite effect to that claimed. In essence I call bullshit.. Don't watch QT so I can't really comment. Though I agree on the principle of keeping the sound at an equal level for all panel participants I was merely reporting an accusation for the sake of debate more than anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Don't watch QT so I can't really comment. Though I agree on the principle of keeping the sound at an equal level for all panel participants I was merely reporting an accusation for the sake of debate more than anything Nor do I (well apart from a bit of this one to check out the claim, which is bobbins). I know - Yer man seems a bit of a conspiracy theorist and fantasist from his twits. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 35 minutes ago, blandy said: Definitely. I neither know nor care whether "elsewhere" is better or worse, and nor should Labour. If it is treated as a political thing, then it's already being handled wrongly, IMO. These people are saying these bad things about us because tories/Zionists... is the absolutely wrong starting point. It's true in some instances, sure. Look at complaints. Deal with the genuine ones. Change and act promptly and as necessary. For fake, over-hyped or whatever ones - respond calmly with factual rebuttal. But you should. Because ultimately, this is politics. You might not want it to be, but it is, and by saying 'well Tories may be worse, but of course the Tory media don't say that, and Labour shouldn't point it out, they should just accept that they're bad' you're asking Labour to play politics at a higher difficulty level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 52 minutes ago, bickster said: Daniel Sugerman, journalist of the Jewish Chronical is questioning Martyn Ware's credential to be a "Sound Expert", which is pretty much a well-documented career. Surely the point is that to claim to be both a founder of Heaven 17 and a sound expert is a contradiction in terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, peterms said: Surely the point is that to claim to be both a founder of Heaven 17 and a sound expert is a contradiction in terms? Writers of some fine pop songs in their time. (We don't need this) Fascist Groove Thang is an absolute classic, change the names of the characters in it and it rings true today (i.e swap Reagan for Trump etc) They've recently (as British Electric Foundation) done a rather good cover of I Wanna Be Your Dog featuring Boy George and as awful as it sounds is actually quite good 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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