The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[villaajax]

When is the title of this thread being updated to "The Margaret Thatcher resembling, Monarchy loving, no threat to the establishment, Labour Party thread"?

[blandy]

23 minutes ago, meregreen said:

It was a silly tweet, especially as there’s a debate to be had about the number of child abusers escaping gaol. It will also, despite the best efforts of the Tory press, be forgotten in a week. People have far more concerns in their lives at the moment to argue over tweets.

It's interesting. I mean I don't like the tweet either, but...

The Tories have been doing this kind of thing routinely for absolutely ages, and just occasionally someone kicks up a fuss about it, but mainly they don't. It's juvenile, but seemingly it has the effect intended on some target audience people. Nobbers, I mean. Nobbers who think Starmer protected Jimmy Saville, because Bunter said it, or who think Labour bankrupted the economy, wants open borders, likes terrorists and rapists and all that drivel, because thick Lee or Suella said so.

Labour's had a go back, and is held to different standards by the Tory press. People who don't like it, don't like it when anyone does it. Labour shouldn't have personalised it, but the underlying information is correct. The Tory record that Labour raised is dreadful, as it is on most things. They should have gone with that, not making it about Sunak.

[Davkaus]

53 minutes ago, blandy said:

Labour's had a go back, and is held to different standards by the Tory press

Agreed with the post, and don't contest this point on its own, but to add to it I've seen far, far more pushback from disillusioned would-be Labour supporters than from the tory media or voters. The left holding their own to higher standards is fairly typical though.

Edited April 7, 2023 by Davkaus

[Davkaus]

I wonder how many of these they've got

 

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I wonder how many of these they've got

 

Quite a few you'd imagine, the only mistake is releasing the first of the series about child sexual exploitation. If that had been later in the series of Top Trumps you'd imagine the reaction would be entirely different

[OutByEaster?]

Regardless of the way in which they're being presented to us, the Labour Party's idea appears to be campaigning on the principles that they'll be strong on crime and reduce our taxes.

Those values seem somehow familiar.

I'd happily pay more tax for better public services, I'd very happily take more tax from our corporate and banking overlords for better public services - for me, those are the priorities I'd like Labour to be talking about - making our societies better, improving things - more care, more opportunity.

In the focus on the brashness of its delivery, no one seems to be talking about Labour's swerve to campaigning on the values of Neo-Liberalism - it's a real disappointment - we get to make smaller and smaller decisions it seems each time we get the opportunity to vote.

 

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Regardless of the way in which they're being presented to us, the Labour Party's idea appears to be campaigning on the principles that they'll be strong on crime and reduce our taxes.

Those values seem somehow familiar.

I'd happily pay more tax for better public services, I'd very happily take more tax from our corporate and banking overlords for better public services - for me, those are the priorities I'd like Labour to be talking about - making our societies better, improving things - more care, more opportunity.

In the focus on the brashness of its delivery, no one seems to be talking about Labour's swerve to campaigning on the values of Neo-Liberalism - it's a real disappointment - we get to make smaller and smaller decisions it seems each time we get the opportunity to vote.

 

You think the Labour should campaign on being lax with criminals and will hit peoples income too?

Being tough on crime has absolutely nothing to do with Neo-liberalism, privatizing the criminal justice system would be neo-liberalism but I see no evidence of that here

Labour and most left parties have never been particularly socially liberal being more about the controlling people for the collective greater good. Labour isnt and never has been a party of individual freedom as that has very little to do with any left political thinking

Being tough on crime is entirely consistent with a party on the left

 

 

[Demitri_C]

39 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Regardless of the way in which they're being presented to us, the Labour Party's idea appears to be campaigning on the principles that they'll be strong on crime and reduce our taxes.

Those values seem somehow familiar.

I'd happily pay more tax for better public services, I'd very happily take more tax from our corporate and banking overlords for better public services - for me, those are the priorities I'd like Labour to be talking about - making our societies better, improving things - more care, more opportunity.

In the focus on the brashness of its delivery, no one seems to be talking about Labour's swerve to campaigning on the values of Neo-Liberalism - it's a real disappointment - we get to make smaller and smaller decisions it seems each time we get the opportunity to vote.

 

Problem is can people afford to pay more? Alot of people cant feed their fanilies properly or scared to stick their heating on

[OutByEaster?]

17 minutes ago, bickster said:

Being tough on crime is entirely consistent with a party on the left

There are different ways to be 'tough on crime' - this is being tough on criminals, which might sound like semantics but is a very different thing - if you want to reduce shoplifting, burglary, car theft, robberies and the other crimes that affect people on a day to day basis, locking up the people who do it for longer isn't a great plan for the long term. Labour should be tough on crime by providing proper care for drug users to get them off drugs, proper opportunities and things to do for young people, proper mental health provision for our communities - all of those things that are really tough on crime because they make crime less necessary, make it a less attractive proposition compared to the available alternatives. 

This is being tough on crime by having longer sentences - it's being tough on the dog by hitting him harder with the slipper - it's a very traditional Conservative way of looking at crime - "We", the successful Conservative class are being subject to the fear of "They", the working class criminals, and we must lock them up for longer and longer until they learn.

17 minutes ago, bickster said:

Labour and most left parties have never been particularly socially liberal being more about the controlling people for the collective greater good. Labour isnt and never has been a party of individual freedom as that has very little to do with any left political thinking.

And that's where adopting the traditional Tory approach of putting the individual first, "we'll reduce your tax as an individual - you'll be alright Jack and you'll have a bit more money to spend if you get sick or you need a filling" - doesn't fit into Labour thinking. Labour should be the party wanting to build a better world where everyone has a good level of social service - access to good healthcare, access to good schools, good roads, affordable trains, energy and so on - they aren't talking about that - they're promoting the same Neo-Lib "I'm alright Jack" message that we first heard from Reagan and Thatcher.

17 minutes ago, bickster said:

You think the Labour should campaign on being lax with criminals and will hit peoples income too?

I believe they should be campaigning on a lot of things that this Labour party doesn't seem to care about. They're currently campaigning on "look after number one" and "lock cars thieves up forever" - it's the message we've had for thirty years from the other side of the house.

I guess it comes down to this weird idea that the leopard wins the election and changes his spots - I can't see it myself - looks, sounds and walks more like a duck to me.

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I guess it comes down to this weird idea that the leopard wins the election and changes his spots - I can't see it myself - looks, sounds and walks more like a duck to me.

 Would you rather be governed by a duck or a vulture?

[OutByEaster?]

Just now, bickster said:

 Would you rather be governed by a duck or a vulture?

Which is what I said - our choices get smaller it seems with each election.

I'd rather avoid birds altogether if I can.

(Rare politics thread opportunity for a Kenneth there).

[bickster]

5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

the traditional Tory approach of putting the individual first, we'll reduce your tax as an individual

Thats Tory rhetoric, it's not Toryism in practice

[bickster]

1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said:

Which is what I said - our choices get smaller it seems with each election.

 

I'm amazed you think it was ever any different tbh

[Jareth]

On 06/04/2023 at 19:30, ml1dch said:

 

Hopefully winning over that one focus group in Mansfield means that all this horrible shit ends up being worthwhile. 

 

Hey @bickster what's your direct comment on this?  Spoke to a Labour loving family member who was keen to say it was the work of some individual -  but yer know, this is crap no? Or can you spin it?

 

[chrisp65]

We are persistently being nudged right. The fabled ‘middle ground’ is now private finance for more prisons. But the Labour one will have a wind turbine if the focus group allows it.

 

[Jareth]

I thought they were supposed to be like the tories, not worse than the tories. 

Can't say we didn't see it coming - Forde said there is a hierarchy of racism in Labour - he was not wrong was he.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Jareth

[bickster]

(Could have gone in a number of topics)

Douglas Ross, leader of the Scottish Tories, has effectively told Scottish Tories to tactically vote for the party best placed to defeat the SNP and protect the Union, in most non-Tory seats, that is Labour.

Let that sink in. The leader of the Scottish Tories is telling his voters to vote Labour in a lot of seats in Scotland. Wow. CCO not happy

Labour in Scotland appear to be being gifted the implosion of both the Tories and the SNP, north of the border

 

[bickster]

On 08/04/2023 at 03:48, Jareth said:

Hey @bickster what's your direct comment on this?  Spoke to a Labour loving family member who was keen to say it was the work of some individual -  but yer know, this is crap no? Or can you spin it?

 

I think it's right to attack the Tories on Law and Order, the one metric, they always come out on top in, especially as their record is so poor.

I think it's wrong to focus on Sunak, he's not been in the job that long and can easily blame everything on his predecessors. Much better to attack the generic Tory record than bring Sunak into it.

On 08/04/2023 at 10:49, Jareth said:

I thought they were supposed to be like the tories, not worse than the tories. 

This is hilarious nonsensical hyperbole

On 08/04/2023 at 10:49, Jareth said:

Can't say we didn't see it coming - Forde said there is a hierarchy of racism in Labour - he was not wrong was he.

The Forde Report was about the Labour Party as lead by the previous incumbent of the leadership office

[Jareth]

2 hours ago, bickster said:

The Forde Report was about the Labour Party as lead by the previous incumbent of the leadership office

Nope - Starmer commissioned it to look at Labour HQ and the issues raised from leaked whatsapp messages from senior members of the party - all anti-Corbyn BTW - these people still work there and haven't answered the charge of a hierarchy of racism. Forde even said they haven't engaged with him. That folks blind to a bit of racism OK that Sunak attack ad - is no surprise.  

[bickster]

14 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Nope

Wrong.

Quote

The Forde report into Labour party factionalism under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership is deeply critical of staff members who were supportive of the Labour leader and those bitterly opposed to his time in office.Here are 10 key takeaways from the 138-page report:

Guardian

From the report itself (available in Guardian link with more)

It was absolutely about the Party under Corbyn's leadership, that was it's remit

Quote

We have heard from a number of staff who worked in Loto in this period that the operation was unstructured and at times chaotic, with a lack of clear decision-making and reporting lines and, in particular, a reluctance on the part of Jeremy Corbyn himself to make and communicate unequivocal decisions.

Quote

Regrettably, certain prominent members of the party – including those central to the factual matrix – either declined to meet with the panel or failed to respond to our requests for evidence. Most notably … Jeremy Corbyn did not engage in our requests to interview him.