chrisp65 Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 20 minutes ago, darrenm said: And yet the people of the UK are overwhelmingly in favour of the NHS, a pure socialist creation. Which suggests that we are a naturally socialist country which votes against its interests. My theory, for what it’s worth. A lot of us are fairly selfish. So when 51% had an outside toilet and couldn’t afford spectacles, Labour could get in to power. Once we had the promise of buying a council house on the cheap and owning our own patio, we voted tory. To a greater or lesser extent, this happens at pretty much every election. There will be those middle ground ‘sway’ voters saying up what’s in it for them. The thing that then throws it slightly out of kilter is a press that forever whispers in the ear how much worse it could be if Labour get in. I’m not sure the public are naturally socialist or capitalist. If they think they have a greater chance of being richer, they’ll vote tory. If they think there’s a chance they’ll be unemployed or sick, they’ll vote Labour. My guess, it’s a relatively small bunch of nerds that have any real ‘philosophy’ that they look for in their political parties. The trick is giving people just enough, coupled with the threat that they could lose it, if the others were in power. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only2McInallys Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 19 minutes ago, darrenm said: And yet the people of the UK are overwhelmingly in favour of the NHS, a pure socialist creation. Which suggests that we are a naturally socialist country which votes against its interests. There are lots of socialist things that people are happy with such as NHS ,Welfare etc they just don’t want socialist governments.Blair effectively positioned the party as Tory light I don’t think the word socialism was ever uttered by him. The last time the Labour Party won an election with socialist policies was 1974.Thats 40 years ago.Whenever they have proposed socialist policies at an election they have been decimated 1979,1983,1987,1992 2010,2015 ,2017.2019 . Blair came to power after 5 election defeats in a row he realised socialism although admirable doesn’t win British elections. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 9, 2020 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, Only2McInallys said: ,2017. Decimated? Thats hyperbole beyond any reason and I'm not a fan of Magic Grandpa. Increasing your share of the vote by 10% (the largest swing by any post war Labour Leader) is not "decimated" 16 minutes ago, Only2McInallys said: 1979 Socialist? James Callaghan, really? 17 minutes ago, Only2McInallys said: 1987 Kinnock? Socialist? 18 minutes ago, Only2McInallys said: 1992 Kinnock again and further to the centre I'll go so far to say since I've been intesterd in politics (say late '70s) Labour have genuinely tried socialism 3 times at the ballot box, Foot and 2 Corbyn's And one of those isn't a "decimation" by any stretch 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 5 hours ago, snowychap said: Don't assume that those who disagree with this kind of simplistic take on things weren't 'around during those times'. Not surprised that this 'not pleasant but had to happen' view is based on a 'unions holding the country to ransom' trope. I was 'around' in those times ( 1970's) I was also a shop steward at the Rover plant at the time. It was bloody frightening, anybody who disagreed with the Senior Shop Steward ( who was pi##ssed every afternoon) was out of a job. Most people would have no idea why they were even on strike, they were just told to go home...... VLD. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Graham t said: I was 'around' in those times ( 1970's) I was also a shop steward at the Rover plant at the time. It was bloody frightening, anybody who disagreed with the Senior Shop Steward ( who was pi##ssed every afternoon) was out of a job. Most people would have no idea why they were even on strike, they were just told to go home...... Of course you were. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only2McInallys Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, bickster said: Decimated? Thats hyperbole beyond any reason and I'm not a fan of Magic Grandpa. Increasing your share of the vote by 10% (the largest swing by any post war Labour Leader) is not "decimated" Socialist? James Callaghan, really? Kinnock? Socialist? Kinnock again and further to the centre I'll go so far to say since I've been intesterd in politics (say late '70s) Labour have genuinely tried socialism 3 times at the ballot box, Foot and 2 Corbyn's And one of those isn't a "decimation" by any stretch Sorry I did get carried away with the word decimated.Some of those elections were close but Labour lost and the Tories won and formed governments. 1983 manifesto was definitely very socialist in fact it was described as the longest suicide note in history . Kinnock was a lot closer to socialism than Blair but that’s not saying much.For me Ed milliband in 2015 was pretty socialist. In those elections where they weren’t very socialist but still lost could they have won them with more socialist policies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, snowychap said: Of course you were. Just because someone says something that doesn't fit your agenda does not mean they are lying. Nice chatting to you again Snowy me old cocker.. P.S. Came 3rd in my Scottish golf tournament so a free holiday in effect, thought you might like to know as I have been away for a week. Keep smiling, VLD. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 Just now, Graham t said: Just because someone says something that doesn't fit your agenda does not mean they are lying. No agenda here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 9, 2020 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Only2McInallys said: Kinnock was a lot closer to socialism than Blair but that’s not saying much.For me Ed milliband in 2015 was pretty socialist. You have a very strange idea of Socialism. Kinnock was the moderniser, it was him that dragged the party towards the centre, it was him that expellent the Militant Tendency. Without Kinnock, the Labour Party would never have got anywhere near geting Blair elected. (or John Smith had he lived). As for Ed Milliband being a socialist, you can't actually be serious 11 minutes ago, Only2McInallys said: 1983 manifesto was definitely very socialist It was, I even said so 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 59 minutes ago, darrenm said: And yet the people of the UK are overwhelmingly in favour of the NHS, a pure socialist creation. Which suggests that we are a naturally socialist country which votes against its interests. It suggests we have a socialist attitude to healthcare provision. Not sure it reads across to other areas of policy. At some point the Tories, the Sun, and the Daily Mail decided the NHS wasn’t worth arguing about (except in terms of funding, and a few dog whistle points about treating foreigners), so it became broadly a national consensus issue. But on other issues I think the UK overall leans just right of centre - eg taxation, immigration, foreign policy, education, state intervention in industry, etc. It’s weird actually how much the NHS has been detached from everything else. Not sure any other country treats its health service as such a unique entity within the wider public sector? Maybe Cuba? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 9, 2020 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, KentVillan said: But on other issues I think the UK overall leans just right of centre - eg taxation, Shame they keep voting for the party of high taxation, they'll never learn. Not disagreeing with your analysis btw, you just hit my Tories and taxation button EDIT: Not so sure on the State Intervention in Industry one either, thinking on it. I think the average man in the street doesn't give it much thought apart from the banks, but the banks is rather a special case. And quite frankly the banks deserve the abuse they get I also think the country are in favour of the state owning the railways because they can all see what a mess privatisation has made of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, bickster said: Shame they keep voting for the party of high taxation, they'll never learn. Not disagreeing with your analysis btw, you just hit my Tories and taxation button EDIT: Not so sure on the State Intervention in Industry one either, thinking on it. I think the average man in the street doesn't give it much thought apart from the banks, but the banks is rather a special case. And quite frankly the banks deserve the abuse they get I also think the country are in favour of the state owning the railways because they can all see what a mess privatisation has made of it. Actually I think 'the country' would like the people who use the railways to pay for them. Seems fair to me..... VLD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 A total free market is a race to the bottom and only benefits those who can afford everything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: A total free market is a race to the bottom and only benefits those who can afford everything. Yes, I know, it's called an 'incentive ' ( to get off 'ones 'bottom and make something of your life...) VLD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Graham t said: Yes, I know, it's called an 'incentive ' ( to get off 'ones 'bottom and make something of your life...) VLD. Question if I may: Are you a billionaire? If not, why haven't you worked hard enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, Graham t said: Yes, I know, it's called an 'incentive ' ( to get off 'ones 'bottom and make something of your life...) What has that got to do with what Stefan posted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 1 minute ago, darrenm said: Question if I may: Are you a billionaire? If not, why haven't you worked hard enough? Hi Darren, no ,not a a billionaire . Never even considered it to be honest. Just your everyday millionaire, Keep smiling, VLD. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 9, 2020 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, Graham t said: Actually I think 'the country' would like the people who use the railways to pay for them. Seems fair to me..... VLD. 6 minutes ago, Graham t said: Yes, I know, it's called an 'incentive ' ( to get off 'ones 'bottom and make something of your life...) VLD. Some great points to consider, thanks WALOOB 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham t Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, snowychap said: What has that got to do with what Stefan posted? Read the post again Snowy me old cocker. I don't need to spell it out surely...... Disappointing... VLD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 9, 2020 Share Posted August 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Graham t said: Hi Darren, no ,not a a billionaire . Never even considered it to be honest. Just your everyday millionaire, Keep smiling, VLD. Good man. You don't feel the need to work harder to earn more money then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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