The Tim Sherwood Thread

[bobzy]

LOL wow, we shouldn't expect to beat a poor Stoke team at home? 

Just can't compete with the Stokes and Sunderlands of this world.

Huge difference between expecting and competing with.

Expectation to beat any side in this league is arrogance of the highest order.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

the impatience of some Villa fans is Newcastle like

I make that 4 managers now that threads or suggestions have been set up early in his reign to have him sacked

I think the expectation is too much as well. A lot of fans seem to think we should be mid table, if you look at the squad I think it's easy to see it's a squad that will be struggling at the bottom. There were many people who seemed to think we should be beating Stoke comfortably at home even though they were a team who finished 8 places and 16 points ahead of us last season and we are a team that has lost it's best three players in the summer and replaced them with not a lot if truth be told.

I'm sorry but this is total nonsense.

I didn't expect to beat Stoke at home. I expected us to at least put up a fight and not play for a 0-0 from the start.

My expectation was not to be 4 points adrift of safety after 8 games, having had fairly easy fixtures.

I'll ask you again. Is our squad any worse than Norwich? Watford? Bournemouth? They all seem to be doing fine in mid table.

Promoted sides have nothing to fear and everything to gain.  Norwich and Bournemouth are very, very settled squads who have belief in their managers.  Ours is entirely new by comparison, and it's showing.  Watford are doing remarkably well (I had them finishing 20th in a league prediction) given the turnaround they've had at the club.  Sometimes these things happen though.

There were plenty of comments of "if we don't beat Stoke at home then it's unacceptable".  That's the opinion of the fan base.  Many are in the same category as Newcastle and Liverpool fans who are regularly ridiculed to the same extent (for **** sake, people are mentioning Klopp and Ancelotti as potential next Villa managers - Benteke to Liverpool is a "sideways step" etc. etc.).  We massively over-evaluate our chances.

Not saying Sherwood is the right choice, but this absolutely happens.

It does. But you can't tar everyone with the same brush just because it suits your stance.

[bobzy]

the impatience of some Villa fans is Newcastle like

I make that 4 managers now that threads or suggestions have been set up early in his reign to have him sacked

 

I think the expectation is too much as well. A lot of fans seem to think we should be mid table, if you look at the squad I think it's easy to see it's a squad that will be struggling at the bottom. There were many people who seemed to think we should be beating Stoke comfortably at home even though they were a team who finished 8 places and 16 points ahead of us last season and we are a team that has lost it's best three players in the summer and replaced them with not a lot if truth be told.

 

I'm sorry but this is total nonsense.

I didn't expect to beat Stoke at home. I expected us to at least put up a fight and not play for a 0-0 from the start.

My expectation was not to be 4 points adrift of safety after 8 games, having had fairly easy fixtures.

I'll ask you again. Is our squad any worse than Norwich? Watford? Bournemouth? They all seem to be doing fine in mid table.

 

Promoted sides have nothing to fear and everything to gain.  Norwich and Bournemouth are very, very settled squads who have belief in their managers.  Ours is entirely new by comparison, and it's showing.  Watford are doing remarkably well (I had them finishing 20th in a league prediction) given the turnaround they've had at the club.  Sometimes these things happen though.

There were plenty of comments of "if we don't beat Stoke at home then it's unacceptable".  That's the opinion of the fan base.  Many are in the same category as Newcastle and Liverpool fans who are regularly ridiculed to the same extent (for **** sake, people are mentioning Klopp and Ancelotti as potential next Villa managers - Benteke to Liverpool is a "sideways step" etc. etc.).  We massively over-evaluate our chances.

Not saying Sherwood is the right choice, but this absolutely happens.

 

 

It does. But you can't tar everyone with the same brush just because it suits your stance.

What stance? :|

[BOF]

I don't think Bobzy has a stance.  But I think it's natural for a fanbase to over-estimate their club, or at least over-estimate a club's capabilities.  The only bit I disagreed with was the notion that people thought Liverpool was a sideways step for Benteke at the time.  The general concensus was more that he could do better than them; and he absolutely could have.  It's just that he didn't represent value for the other clubs whereas 'plop were desperate and stumped up.

But the larger point of our squad being less effective because they're simply not as settled is IMV the right one.  We were always going to need time.  We still do.  My concern now is that the time is being spent far less effectively than it could be.

Edited October 7, 2015 by BOF

[StefanAVFC]

I just hugely disagree that we have inflated expectations. I think that's insulting.

People don't want Sherwood out because we're not mid table already.

They want him out because he seemingly doesn't have a clue and we're cut adrift in the relegation places already with really tough fixtures coming up until December.

[BOF]

I just hugely disagree that we have inflated expectations. I think that's insulting.

People don't want Sherwood out because we're not mid table already.

They want him out because he seemingly doesn't have a clue and we're cut adrift in the relegation places already with really tough fixtures coming up until December.

I think both of those things can be true and I think they both apply to different parts of the fanbase.  As is always the case, it is shades of grey rather than black and white.  I too want him out because I think he's clueless.  So I see our position at the bottom getting worse before it gets better; if it ever gets better at all.  But it's also true that I believe we're one of the few clubs in the league; with the right backing; who could challenge and sustain a placing up with the big boys given fanbase, stadium etc etc. 

[bobzy]

I think a lot of the time, people think about teams and players in very "black and white" (hi VT) terms.  Mentioning Norwich and Bournemouth as doing well is a pretty good example.

Statistically, at least 1 promoted side stays in the Premier League the season after they get promoted.  Given the gulf in finances between the Premier League and the Championship, you would "expect" all 3 sides to go straight back down.  It doesn't happen.  There's a whole load of different pressures that sides feel and, for me, I think Villa players now feel it a lot more than before - especially with a new team.  They come to a "big club" which has won the European trophy.  They get shown about the ground, the trophy room etc. and are probably thinking "yes, this is more like it".

They start the season poorly - is it them doing badly?  The fans expect more, look at the status of the club!  The manager doesn't instill confidence.  Points thrown away against Sunderland and Leicester probably play on their minds.  Maybe we're not good enough?  Chelsea are likely in a similar boat (but with far greater ambitions) - there's no way they're the 16th best side in the Premier League, but the pressure on those players is now massive.  Absolutely massive.

For Norwich, Watford and Bournemouth?  Each game is a joy.  Go out and play freely, there's no expectation of you to win games.  The pressures are entirely on the other side.  To an extent, the same is true of Leicester and Crystal Palace.  They're recently promoted, they're playing with freedom and it's showing.

Villa, Newcastle and Sunderland?  Shit boys, you all need to be doing better.  It's what the fans expect.  It's what the league (to an extent, maybe more "used to") expects.  It's likely what the players expect.

We're taking time to settle and the fixture list, as I mentioned before, actually hasn't been kind to us at all.  Unfortunately, this has heaped a whole load of pressure onto a manager (who is panicking) and players (who are closing-up) who are now under-performing.  It was always going to take time but, in my opinion, fans don't generally have this.  Look at the turn on Sherwood already (myself included).  We expect far more than this and to say we shouldn't is to massively go against the grain.  The majority of fans on here, in the streets and in the stands expect to be well clear of relegation.

Sorry if people feel insulted by this, but that's definitely the way it is.

[StefanAVFC]

Was generalising.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Bobzy - I was not necessarily referring to you. I was making a general point.

I backed Lambert for a long time believing he was doing an ok job despite the results and with the resources available. Then he stopped doing an ok job, even though the resources did not change.

Not everyone is shackled by black and white thinking.

[bobzy]

Bobzy - I was not necessarily referring to you. I was making a general point.

 

I backed Lambert for a long time believing he was doing an ok job despite the results and with the resources available. Then he stopped doing an ok job, even though the resources did not change.

 

Not everyone is shackled by black and white thinking.

Yeah, agreed.  And as I said, I'm with people in terms of Sherwood.  My expectation levels are also higher than where we currently are, although possibly not on a game-by-game basis as such.

I do think we'll improve over the course of the season, though, even if Sherwood stays in charge.

[KHV]

LOL wow, we shouldn't expect to beat a poor Stoke team at home? 

No not really, we have been poor at home for the last 77 games!!!!!

[BOF]

I've jumped on Sherwood far quicker than I would ever jump on any manager normally.  But there are exceptional circumstances here.  Otherwise I'd still be on side.  I actually think the fixtures have been unkind to him.  He was given a lot of winnable fixtures at the point when the squad was at its least cohesive.  Now that the league is getting into the swing of things and is about to take shape, we're entering shitsville with most of the big boys to come.  I'd have rather taken our early beatings from the big boys (if you're going to lose anyway...) and go into October against the chaff.  This I think is going to conspire against him.  It will in all likelihood lead to his demise.

[StefanAVFC]

Flip it on its head though. Swap our fixture list with Newcastle's (for example as they had an objectively tough start) 

Sherwood does things exactly the same way. Baffling tactics, inconsistent lineups and running his mouth. We STILL don't have points on the board and no cohesion going into our 'easier' fixtures. The situation is still bad. So not sure I can agree with the fixtures point. Again, this is generalising (so please don't accuse me of black and white thinking)

Either way, the manager is the problem.

Edited October 7, 2015 by StefanAVFC

[BOF]

 

Flip it on its head though. Swap our fixture list with Newcastle's (for example as they had an objectively tough start)  Sherwood does things exactly the same way. Baffling tactics, inconsistent lineups and running his mouth. We STILL don't have points on the board and no cohesion going into our 'easier' fixtures. The situation is still bad. So not sure I can agree with the fixtures point. Again, this is generalising (so please don't accuse me of black and white thinking)

Either way, the manager is the problem

No you misunderstand me.  My point about the fixtures was solely that from Sherwood's perspective it would be a lot better for his job security.  I never meant that we'd want him here in that scenario.  As you say, regardless of fixtures, he's just as clueless.  It's just that he'd have had a better chance of getting results from here onwards if the first 8 and second 8 had been swapped around.

[StefanAVFC]

 

Flip it on its head though. Swap our fixture list with Newcastle's (for example as they had an objectively tough start)  Sherwood does things exactly the same way. Baffling tactics, inconsistent lineups and running his mouth. We STILL don't have points on the board and no cohesion going into our 'easier' fixtures. The situation is still bad. So not sure I can agree with the fixtures point. Again, this is generalising (so please don't accuse me of black and white thinking)

Either way, the manager is the problem

  It's just that he'd have had a better chance of getting results from here onwards if the first 8 and second 8 had been swapped around.

That's where I disagree! I think it would be exactly the same. Or possibly worse as we'd probably be on even fewer points and the pressure would higher.

I'd agree if things had got better as our easier fixtures went on, but actually things got worse.

But we're talking in hypotheticals so we really have no idea

[KHV]

 

Flip it on its head though. Swap our fixture list with Newcastle's (for example as they had an objectively tough start)  Sherwood does things exactly the same way. Baffling tactics, inconsistent lineups and running his mouth. We STILL don't have points on the board and no cohesion going into our 'easier' fixtures. The situation is still bad. So not sure I can agree with the fixtures point. Again, this is generalising (so please don't accuse me of black and white thinking)

Either way, the manager is the problem

No you misunderstand me.  My point about the fixtures was solely that from Sherwood's perspective it would be a lot better for his job security.  I never meant that we'd want him here in that scenario.  As you say, regardless of fixtures, he's just as clueless.  It's just that he'd have had a better chance of getting results from here onwards if the first 8 and second 8 had been swapped around.

 

Knowing Villa we will probably take 9 points from the trips to Chelsea, Southampton and Spurs

[Stevo985]

It's not overestimating Aston Villa's capabilities to expect to not be bottom of the table in October (which we will be)

[bobzy]

It's not overestimating Aston Villa's capabilities to expect to not be bottom of the table in October (which we will be)

It's not.

But that's isn't the point being made, and you know it

[dont_do_it_doug.]

 

Flip it on its head though. Swap our fixture list with Newcastle's (for example as they had an objectively tough start)  Sherwood does things exactly the same way. Baffling tactics, inconsistent lineups and running his mouth. We STILL don't have points on the board and no cohesion going into our 'easier' fixtures. The situation is still bad. So not sure I can agree with the fixtures point. Again, this is generalising (so please don't accuse me of black and white thinking)

Either way, the manager is the problem

No you misunderstand me.  My point about the fixtures was solely that from Sherwood's perspective it would be a lot better for his job security.  I never meant that we'd want him here in that scenario.  As you say, regardless of fixtures, he's just as clueless.  It's just that he'd have had a better chance of getting results from here onwards if the first 8 and second 8 had been swapped around.

 

Knowing Villa we will probably take 9 points from the trips to Chelsea, Southampton and Spurs [emoji38]

Knowing Villa, we definitely won't! It wouldn't be inconceivable to get 3/4 points from the next 5/6 games. Where are we then? Still only 4 adrift or more?

[KHV]

It's not overestimating Aston Villa's capabilities to expect to not be bottom of the table in October (which we will be)

I just cant agree with this given how crap we have been in recent years, finishes of 16th, 15th, 15th and 17th in the last 4 years would not exactly suggest we are capable of much more. We haven't even made 40 points in 3 of those seasons. This summer saw us lose 3 very good players, who were probably our best players at the end of last season. Villa have just been really lucky with how crap other teams have been in recent years, our luck might be about to run out this season.

Edited October 7, 2015 by KHV