bobzy Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Here's a challenge: Take Lambert's total spend. Subtract the cost of the players who've picked up long term injuries. Divide by the number of seasons he's been here. Then tell me how Lambert is supposed to perform better than his predecessor. You're allowed to ignore the fact that the wage bill is now one of the lowest in the league (even though that's nearly always the best statistical indicator of how a team will perform). I agree with the point of view etc. but the only thing I would say is that we're not playing any better on the whole. Even if he kept the same squad of 20 players, I'd like to see some sort of improvement in the way we play football. Against Southampton, we did ok tactically from a defensive point because we had the midfield 3 sitting on top of our high defence - but this meant N'Zogbia (who was useless), Weimann (who didn't touch the ball first half) and Gabby (who actually had a decent game) were completely isolated. There was no pressure on Southampton bringing the ball from the back and no link between midfield and attack. The latter point, especially, is draining us of our goals - as we all know. I don't think Lambert could necessarily do much better purely in terms of results, but the play style certainly leaves a lot to be desired. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 To simply boil it down. I hate the style of football he has us playing, it's as bad as I've ever seen us play in my lifetime. If the results were satisfactory then I could live with it, but on the whole they haven't been. Looking through the squad individually it isn't too bad at all and I feel has the ability to be competing higher than scraping survival each year and surely that has to go down to the manager, even with migrating circumstances considered. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 DCjonah, you just cant be that black and white I'm afraid. There are shades of grey. No one , not one person, would not be critical of some of the decisions Paul has made since he has been here. He is not perfect, show me the manager who is However, you have to look wider than that and understand the circumstances in which he has been working, not just money but also backrrom staff, injuries, other teams competing against us, new ceo, players who he tooka chance on which is what he had to do with what he was given not paying off etc etc etc Blame him for the last two and half years? we were declining for 2 and a half years before that to be honest and he has had to try and correct that. He has no magic wand. So blame him for some of his managerial decisions fair enough, totally blame him for 2 and a half years which is what your post suggests? No no way for me Apart from injuries which all teams get all the others above situations in bold have either been caused directly by Lambert or handled in a totally unprofessional manner by him! Were we declining before Lambert, yes, has he dragged us down further, yes, should he have handled the job better 100% yes. Should he be sacked. Yes. Lerner been an idiot owner and made things more difficult than needs be but in keeping Lambert 2 wrongs definately don't make a right! And let's forget the other Scotish manager he's gone, let's sack his successor (funny word to be relevant) and find someone to take us forward! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Apart from injuries which all teams get all the others above situations in bold have either been caused directly by Lambert or handled in a totally unprofessional manner by him! Were we declining before Lambert, yes, has he dragged us down further, yes, should he have handled the job better 100% yes. Should he be sacked. Yes. Lerner been an idiot owner and made things more difficult than needs be but in keeping Lambert 2 wrongs definately don't make a right! And let's forget the other Scotish manager he's gone, let's sack his successor (funny word to be relevant) and find someone to take us forward! He hasn't dragged us further down, though. We're pretty stagnant and not spending money... so we're going to remain pretty stagnant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) Very good, detailed response but I'm still not grasping why people can't just be a little more positive about the fact that we have taken points against teams in much better form than us. The fact that I am not alone in this must also show you that other people feel the same. Because, why would they? Why would anyone who is staunchly anti-Lambert give any credit to a draw against Southampton? Especially having everyone was posting "after we lose to Southampton and Burnley". Brilliant fans, though, brilliant fans. But on the flip side to that, after 100 games and losing nearly half of them, there are some that don't put any blame on the manager. So why would 2 points in our last 8 games make people think different of him? If we'd lost last night would your opinion have changed? Who are these people who don't put any blame on Lambert??? I haven't seen anything on here that would suggest anyone thinks Lambert is 100% blameless there are just people who sympathize with the restrictions he has had to work under. You don't half make some sweeping statements my man. Edited November 25, 2014 by sexbelowsound 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Apart from injuries which all teams get all the others above situations in bold have either been caused directly by Lambert or handled in a totally unprofessional manner by him! Were we declining before Lambert, yes, has he dragged us down further, yes, should he have handled the job better 100% yes. Should he be sacked. Yes. Lerner been an idiot owner and made things more difficult than needs be but in keeping Lambert 2 wrongs definately don't make a right! And let's forget the other Scotish manager he's gone, let's sack his successor (funny word to be relevant) and find someone to take us forward! He hasn't dragged us further down, though. We're pretty stagnant and not spending money... so we're going to remain pretty stagnant. The whole point was for him to stops us being stagnant, ergo he's a failure! He has a net spending way in excess of McLeish but can only struggle to match his results? That's how rubbish Lambert is! He told Lerner he could do this that and the other and he can't do any of it!! He needs to look at himself in the mirror and see if he has any self respect left or is he just like the rest and a money grabbing sponger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 To simply boil it down. I hate the style of football he has us playing, it's as bad as I've ever seen us play in my lifetime. If the results were satisfactory then I could live with it, but on the whole they haven't been. Looking through the squad individually it isn't too bad at all and I feel has the ability to be competing higher than scraping survival each year and surely that has to go down to the manager, even with migrating circumstances considered. It probably comes down to opinions, but I think you overestimate the level of ability in the squad and if you look at transfer values I suspect you might have to agree. At least you're not: - second-guessing him using hindsight, like many of his detractors. or - criticising him over Karsa-gate. I would have been disgusted to see him turf out his assistants at the first sign of trouble after they'd helped him get three successive promotions. or - saying that "all teams have to deal with injuries". Our luck has been really, seriously, freakishly, unbelievably, laughably bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Looking at the here and now I can't quite grasp the reactions from last night. Really? Looking at the here and now we have taken two points from a possible 24, have not won for 8 games, have scored just two goals during that time and put in some dire overly negative performances. We have played 7 of last seasons top 8 in our past 9 games and should have 7 point to show from them. We would all gladly take a point per game from those teams. Benteke's stupidity aside we would have. I think when we get Benteke back and a consistent back 4 again we'll get some good performances and begin to rack up points. I will also refer people to this period of moaning when we record back to back wins or 7 points from 9 before the turn of the year Sorry these could have would have should have posts just sound frankly delusional to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 So those who see it as a budget thing will presumably continue to go and watch for the next ten years if the budget remains the same, the manager remains the same, and the defend and hoof style remains the same ? Or if they don't go it will be simply due to the owner not spending enough ? There are an awful lot of teams across every league with tight budgets but where it is still worth turning up because you occasionally see some football. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Apart from injuries which all teams get all the others above situations in bold have either been caused directly by Lambert or handled in a totally unprofessional manner by him! Were we declining before Lambert, yes, has he dragged us down further, yes, should he have handled the job better 100% yes. Should he be sacked. Yes. Lerner been an idiot owner and made things more difficult than needs be but in keeping Lambert 2 wrongs definately don't make a right! And let's forget the other Scotish manager he's gone, let's sack his successor (funny word to be relevant) and find someone to take us forward! He hasn't dragged us further down, though. We're pretty stagnant and not spending money... so we're going to remain pretty stagnant. The whole point was for him to stops us being stagnant, ergo he's a failure! He has a net spending way in excess of McLeish but can only struggle to match his results? That's how rubbish Lambert is! He told Lerner he could do this that and the other and he can't do any of it!! He needs to look at himself in the mirror and see if he has any self respect left or is he just like the rest and a money grabbing sponger! Are you really comparing one season to 2 and a half in terms of "net spend"? I don't think he's a money grabbing sponger at all. He came to the club in challenging circumstances (circumstances that Martinez turned down, by the way) and has stuck with us, despite never having a real amount to spend on players. To transform the team that much under those restrictions must be incredibly tough. Could he do better? Yes. Is he doing terribly? No. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 So those who see it as a budget thing will presumably continue to go and watch for the next ten years if the budget remains the same, the manager remains the same, and the defend and hoof style remains the same ? Or if they don't go it will be simply due to the owner not spending enough ? There are an awful lot of teams across every league with tight budgets but where it is still worth turning up because you occasionally see some football. ...and when we have our better players back, we play some football. Not the greatest in the World, granted, but against Spurs for ex, we looked a better side. If we want to see a real improvement, more needs to be spent on the squad. Simple. It's not like Lambert isn't getting the best from talent costing £100m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 To simply boil it down. I hate the style of football he has us playing, it's as bad as I've ever seen us play in my lifetime. If the results were satisfactory then I could live with it, but on the whole they haven't been. Looking through the squad individually it isn't too bad at all and I feel has the ability to be competing higher than scraping survival each year and surely that has to go down to the manager, even with migrating circumstances considered. It probably comes down to opinions, but I think you overestimate the level of ability in the squad and if you look at transfer values I suspect you might have to agree. At least you're not: - second-guessing him using hindsight, like many of his detractors. or - criticising him over Karsa-gate. I would have been disgusted to see him turf out his assistants at the first sign of trouble after they'd helped him get three successive promotions. or - saying that "all teams have to deal with injuries". Our luck has been really, seriously, freakishly, unbelievably, laughably bad. Would certainly be hard to argue in terms of transfer fees paid that we should be aiming any higher but in terms of actual ability I'd like to think so, but as you said it really is a matter of opinion. Have to agree with injuries. Although they are part and parcel of the game, maybe not in terms of frequency but the severity and the fact it always seems to be key players we have been rather unlucky. Then again even with a full strength side the football doesn't appear to get much better and I find myself getting more and more disinterested and it seems from dropping attendances I'm not the only one. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannockVillan Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 I didn't appreciate his circumstances had flown south for the winter! Seriously though, I tend to agree. He hasn't had the best hand but surely anyone could do more with this team than what is currently being servied up. ok we're light on umbers at the moment but you still have the basis of a decent enough team yet we always seem to be scrabbling for draws never mind victories. At no stage last night did I think we were going t owin that game and only one thought crossed ym mind after Southampton scored and that was "how long until the second goes in". it's just not good enough for a premier league team whatever your financial position is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) To simply boil it down. I hate the style of football he has us playing, it's as bad as I've ever seen us play in my lifetime. If the results were satisfactory then I could live with it, but on the whole they haven't been. Looking through the squad individually it isn't too bad at all and I feel has the ability to be competing higher than scraping survival each year and surely that has to go down to the manager, even with migrating circumstances considered. It probably comes down to opinions, but I think you overestimate the level of ability in the squad and if you look at transfer values I suspect you might have to agree. At least you're not: - second-guessing him using hindsight, like many of his detractors. or - criticising him over Karsa-gate. I would have been disgusted to see him turf out his assistants at the first sign of trouble after they'd helped him get three successive promotions. or - saying that "all teams have to deal with injuries". Our luck has been really, seriously, freakishly, unbelievably, laughably bad. Would certainly be hard to argue in terms of transfer fees paid that we should be aiming any higher but in terms of actual ability I'd like to think so, but as you said it really is a matter of opinion. Have to agree with injuries. Although they are part and parcel of the game, maybe not in terms of frequency but the severity and the fact it always seems to be key players we have been rather unlucky. Then again even with a full strength side the football doesn't appear to get much better and I find myself getting more and more disinterested and it seems from dropping attendances I'm not the only one. Agree with this. I would say though there have been times when we've 'clicked' and played some decent stuff, albeit few and far between. Edited November 25, 2014 by sexbelowsound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 You're allowed to ignore the fact that the wage bill is now one of the lowest in the league (even though that's nearly always the best statistical indicator of how a team will perform).Is that a fact?It may well be but it would be nice to see the evidence in support of this fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Very good, detailed response but I'm still not grasping why people can't just be a little more positive about the fact that we have taken points against teams in much better form than us. The fact that I am not alone in this must also show you that other people feel the same. Because, why would they? Why would anyone who is staunchly anti-Lambert give any credit to a draw against Southampton? Especially having everyone was posting "after we lose to Southampton and Burnley". Brilliant fans, though, brilliant fans. But on the flip side to that, after 100 games and losing nearly half of them, there are some that don't put any blame on the manager. So why would 2 points in our last 8 games make people think different of him? If we'd lost last night would your opinion have changed? Who are these people who don't put any blame on Lambert??? I haven't seen anything on here that would suggest anyone thinks Lambert is 100% blameless there are just people who sympathize with the restrictions he had to work under. You don't half make some sweeping statements my man. Here's a challenge: Take Lambert's total spend. Subtract the cost of the players who've picked up long term injuries. Divide by the number of seasons he's been here. Then tell me how Lambert is supposed to perform better than his predecessor. You're allowed to ignore the fact that the wage bill is now one of the lowest in the league (even though that's nearly always the best statistical indicator of how a team will perform). That's a prime example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexbelowsound Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Very good, detailed response but I'm still not grasping why people can't just be a little more positive about the fact that we have taken points against teams in much better form than us. The fact that I am not alone in this must also show you that other people feel the same. Because, why would they? Why would anyone who is staunchly anti-Lambert give any credit to a draw against Southampton? Especially having everyone was posting "after we lose to Southampton and Burnley". Brilliant fans, though, brilliant fans. But on the flip side to that, after 100 games and losing nearly half of them, there are some that don't put any blame on the manager. So why would 2 points in our last 8 games make people think different of him? If we'd lost last night would your opinion have changed? Who are these people who don't put any blame on Lambert??? I haven't seen anything on here that would suggest anyone thinks Lambert is 100% blameless there are just people who sympathize with the restrictions he had to work under. You don't half make some sweeping statements my man. Here's a challenge: Take Lambert's total spend. Subtract the cost of the players who've picked up long term injuries. Divide by the number of seasons he's been here. Then tell me how Lambert is supposed to perform better than his predecessor. You're allowed to ignore the fact that the wage bill is now one of the lowest in the league (even though that's nearly always the best statistical indicator of how a team will perform). That's a prime example. A prime example of what? You making up conclusions based on one post? That was Crackpot's post was it not? You should know as well I do his stance on Lambert as he has mentioned it on here many times and often in direct response to you. Why not ask him now if he thinks Lambert is 100% blameless and see what he says. I'm pretty sure you already know the answer though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 To simply boil it down. I hate the style of football he has us playing, it's as bad as I've ever seen us play in my lifetime. If the results were satisfactory then I could live with it, but on the whole they haven't been. Looking through the squad individually it isn't too bad at all and I feel has the ability to be competing higher than scraping survival each year and surely that has to go down to the manager, even with migrating circumstances considered. It's the worst squad I have ever seen in my lifetime, and by some distance. Nobody could get these clowns to hold onto a ball for 5 passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Very good, detailed response but I'm still not grasping why people can't just be a little more positive about the fact that we have taken points against teams in much better form than us. The fact that I am not alone in this must also show you that other people feel the same.Because, why would they? Why would anyone who is staunchly anti-Lambert give any credit to a draw against Southampton? Especially having everyone was posting "after we lose to Southampton and Burnley". Brilliant fans, though, brilliant fans.But on the flip side to that, after 100 games and losing nearly half of them, there are some that don't put any blame on the manager. So why would 2 points in our last 8 games make people think different of him? If we'd lost last night would your opinion have changed? Who are these people who don't put any blame on Lambert??? I haven't seen anything on here that would suggest anyone thinks Lambert is 100% blameless there are just people who sympathize with the restrictions he had to work under. You don't half make some sweeping statements my man. Here's a challenge: Take Lambert's total spend. Subtract the cost of the players who've picked up long term injuries. Divide by the number of seasons he's been here. Then tell me how Lambert is supposed to perform better than his predecessor. You're allowed to ignore the fact that the wage bill is now one of the lowest in the league (even though that's nearly always the best statistical indicator of how a team will perform). That's a prime example. A prime example of what? You making up conclusions based on one post? That was Crackpot's post was it not? You should know as well I do his stance on Lambert as he has mentioned it on here many times and often in direct response to you. Why not ask him now if he thinks Lambert is 100% blameless and see what he says. I'm pretty sure you already know the answer though. If he does blame him for things he does a good job at hiding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Apart from injuries which all teams get all the others above situations in bold have either been caused directly by Lambert or handled in a totally unprofessional manner by him! Were we declining before Lambert, yes, has he dragged us down further, yes, should he have handled the job better 100% yes. Should he be sacked. Yes. Lerner been an idiot owner and made things more difficult than needs be but in keeping Lambert 2 wrongs definately don't make a right! And let's forget the other Scotish manager he's gone, let's sack his successor (funny word to be relevant) and find someone to take us forward! He hasn't dragged us further down, though. We're pretty stagnant and not spending money... so we're going to remain pretty stagnant. The whole point was for him to stops us being stagnant, ergo he's a failure! He has a net spending way in excess of McLeish but can only struggle to match his results? That's how rubbish Lambert is! He told Lerner he could do this that and the other and he can't do any of it!! He needs to look at himself in the mirror and see if he has any self respect left or is he just like the rest and a money grabbing sponger! Are you really comparing one season to 2 and a half in terms of "net spend"? I don't think he's a money grabbing sponger at all. He came to the club in challenging circumstances (circumstances that Martinez turned down, by the way) and has stuck with us, despite never having a real amount to spend on players. To transform the team that much under those restrictions must be incredibly tough. Could he do better? Yes. Is he doing terribly? No. I disagree, could do better? No, he is just not capable of doing any better. He is that poor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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