Popular Post markavfc40 Posted May 25, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted May 25, 2014 (edited) I didn't buy into the Lambert hype when he arrived but at the same time I haven't jumped in with the crowd asking him to leave. My opinion is still the same, he is a decent young manager and is much of a muchness with any other manager we'd be looking at attracting. We are not going to sack him and find the next Simione so I'm in favour of keeping him on as he knows the squad and provides continuity. ....continuity of what exactly? This is the crux of the argument for or against keeping him on now for me. People state given the predicament the club finds itself in in terms of being up for sale that it is now best to keep Lambert on for the sake of continuity - he knows the players etc, etc. However when you look at what it is we would be continuing with it is frightening. We secured one win from our last 9 games, taking just 4 points from 27, go back a little further and look at the last 15 games we took just 11 points from 45 and go back even further and from our last 24 games we took just 19 points from a possible 72. I cannot think of one reason to give me hope Lambert can turn that around. We had a decent end to the 12/13 season, Lambert spent around 15-20 mill last summer, signed half a dozen players and we went backwards and had our worst season since we were relegated in 1987. I fear if we go with the policy of continuity it will result in a continuation of our dire form and ultimately lead to relegation. To at least give ourselves a chance we need a change of manager regardless of who the owner is. Edited May 25, 2014 by markavfc40 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I really hate seeing Pulis as some sort of figure every manager should copy, he organised and motivated a team credit for that but hes not a great manager and i hate seeing him as the example everyone points too. I know theres people here who like and defend Lambert but out of interested does anyone genuinely think hes done a good job? Well, it depends what you mean by a great manager, doesn't it? Getting teams to regularly finish higher in the table than their financial outgoings would suggest is a real achievement. We, on the other hand, have finished lower in the table than our wage bill would suggest for the last 4 years consecutively. If you're only interested in the style of the football, and not in the results, then Pulis indeed isn't a great manager. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 When did Tony Pulis become a managerial god? He had a good run with Palace for a couple of months, great. You need to wait a bit longer than that to judge him as a genius. A tad of hyperbole there i would wager....who said he was a god/genius. our manager has had 2 years for us to form some kind of opinion....interesting how its divided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers13 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I really hate seeing Pulis as some sort of figure every manager should copy, he organised and motivated a team credit for that but hes not a great manager and i hate seeing him as the example everyone points too. I know theres people here who like and defend Lambert but out of interested does anyone genuinely think hes done a good job? Well, it depends what you mean by a great manager, doesn't it? Getting teams to regularly finish higher in the table than their financial outgoings would suggest is a real achievement. We, on the other hand, have finished lower in the table than our wage bill would suggest for the last 4 years consecutively. If you're only interested in the style of the football, and not in the results, then Pulis indeed isn't a great manager. "Getting teams to regularly finish higher in the table than their financial outgoings would suggest is a real achievement." He doesn't do this though. At stoke he had one of the highest net spends on transfers of any club in the league, and he spent it poorly enough that they didn't progress at all, in either style or results. If he did, id call him a great manager, because the game is about results. But he doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I didn't buy into the Lambert hype when he arrived but at the same time I haven't jumped in with the crowd asking him to leave. My opinion is still the same, he is a decent young manager and is much of a muchness with any other manager we'd be looking at attracting. We are not going to sack him and find the next Simione so I'm in favour of keeping him on as he knows the squad and provides continuity. ....continuity of what exactly? This is the crux of the argument for or against keeping him on now for me. People state given the predicament the club finds itself in in terms of being up for sale that it is now best to keep Lambert on for the sake of continuity - he knows the players etc, etc. However when you look at what it is we would be continuing with it is frightening. We secured one win from our last 9 games, taking just 4 points from 27, go back a little further and look at the last 15 games we took just 11 points from 45 and go back even further and from our last 24 games we took just 19 points from a possible 72. I cannot think of one reason to give me hope Lambert can turn that around. We had a decent end to the 12/13 season, Lambert spend around 15-20 mill last summer signed half a dozen players and we went backwards and had our worst season since we were relegated in 1987. I fear if we go with the policy of continuity it will result in a continuation of our dire from and ultimately lead to relegation. To at least give ourselves a chance we need a change of manager regardless of who the owner is. Agree completly which is why starting with Lerner and lambert is a real worry. A different manager my get new ideas into the team and get the players organised better. I think we need to try a change and not just stick with Lambert just because he's here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Sorry, should have been clearer, I really meant wage bill, which is the single most accurate predictor of league placement by far. On transfers, his record is considerably weaker, but they generally don't predict league placings very well at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 (edited) I think what TRO is trying to challenge is the ridiculous notion that different managers would achieve exactly the same results with the same resources as is implied by those who say things like "no other manager could have done any better than Lambert" etc. absolutely spot on. I'm tying to say we settle too easily for second best and don't search for a Diego Simone of our own like we did with Saunders and Barton. Sorry TRO totally disagree. I cannot see how you can claim we settle "for second best" Martinez turned us down and Lambert was the fans choice. As regards the distant past; as much as I respect Tony Barton's memory, it is ludicrous to use him as an example, he inherited Saunders team. He will always be a legend but few will claim he was an exceptional manager. As for Saunders. He was a relatively unknown quantity. At the time of his appointment, most fans were unimpressed and he was not perceived as "the best". Sorry but your argument doesn't make sense. Sorry Mike but your response doesn't make sense to me either ...... I'm not explaining myself very well or you havn't got the gist of my point. Firstly the "second best" I am referring to is the current performance of our team, not the initial appointment,some seem to think some kind of divine intervention is going to happen and it will all come good under this manager. It didn't take the Man U fans long to say " no more mr Moyes"......we the fans are still pontificating whether we have got a good one or not as for the second point the reason Ron Saunders and Tony Barton was mentioned in Tandem was the very fact that they were unknowns which was my very point and Tony Barton was instrumental in spotting ALL the talent that Ron Saunders and Roy Mclaren so aptly Managed.....Ron won the League and Tony won the Euro cup, so inspite of the competition at that time I think it is a fair comparison.... and no they wasn't world class and neither necessarily is Simone. When I said " We settle for second best"" I meant the club staff and whilst we are on the subject does it take the fans to select a manager? I guess the fans never chose Arsene Wenger or Ron Saunders for that matter. so just in case I have still failed to get my point over......Unknowns can be a big success as Jose Mourinho was at Porto all those years ago. ps albeit,a bit of research, good interviewing techniques and a good offer is very helpful. Moyes spent north of £55 million on players, and took over a team that won the PL at a canter the previous season. It's not a very realistic comparison. Every club wants to find a manager who can get a team to consistently finish higher than their outlay would suggest, but we can't all have them. Simeone came out of nowhere - sometimes the rare manager who actually makes a difference by their own skill does appear. If you're lucky enough to land one, great. We haven't. But the relevant question isn't 'is Paul Lambert one of the best managers in the world'? or 'could somebody do better than Lambert?', it's 'would sacking the manager in the midst of a summer of complete turmoil be obviously counterproductive?'. The answer to that question is yes, sadly. Comparisons of this nature rarely have all the criteria like a row of ducks....The point was other teams that we are competing with do not put up with failure as long as we do before making a decision. That is probably one of the few things I miss about Doug Ellis( hush my mouth)....He would be gone by now.If Tony Barton could not survive 8th I'm sure PL would probably have struggled to be in charge last season under him. I understand that it is probably easier to sell a club with a manager as without and with the possibility we won't sell it in time, it is hard to visualize but it could be worse....but I grant you that. They are extraordinary circumstances we find ourselves in, so I suspect I should accept extraordinary decisions. Edited May 25, 2014 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers13 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Sorry, should have been clearer, I really meant wage bill, which is the single most accurate predictor of league placement by far. On transfers, his record is considerably weaker, but they generally don't predict league placings very well at all. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm guessing that he wasn't overachieving at stoke even looking at wage bill in the last couple seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I'm not one for analysing stats, but I'm sure there are posters that are much better equipped than me for doing it. I would be interested to know how many teams have eclipsed us in their development/ consistent league placings over the last 10 years.....or a period of time that reflects some relevance of pattern. teams like Stoke & Southampton as just 2 who have come from behind us and overtaken in terms of consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Lions_Roar Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I really hate seeing Pulis as some sort of figure every manager should copy, he organised and motivated a team credit for that but hes not a great manager and i hate seeing him as the example everyone points too. I know theres people here who like and defend Lambert but out of interested does anyone genuinely think hes done a good job? Well, it depends what you mean by a great manager, doesn't it? Getting teams to regularly finish higher in the table than their financial outgoings would suggest is a real achievement. We, on the other hand, have finished lower in the table than our wage bill would suggest for the last 4 years consecutively. If you're only interested in the style of the football, and not in the results, then Pulis indeed isn't a great manager. "Getting teams to regularly finish higher in the table than their financial outgoings would suggest is a real achievement." He doesn't do this though. At stoke he had one of the highest net spends on transfers of any club in the league, and he spent it poorly enough that they didn't progress at all, in either style or results. If he did, id call him a great manager, because the game is about results. But he doesn't. Was going to say, he wasted loads of money at Stoke. Even wasted money so far at palace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Sorry, should have been clearer, I really meant wage bill, which is the single most accurate predictor of league placement by far. On transfers, his record is considerably weaker, but they generally don't predict league placings very well at all. I'm not 100% sure, but I'm guessing that he wasn't overachieving at stoke even looking at wage bill in the last couple seasons. It may have been true for the last season he was there. But he was there for quite a few seasons, and if you include this season as well, his record is overwhelmingly positive in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amo69 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Guys losing Lambert now would be a disaster in my opinion. He is not the most inspiring of managers but he is the best we can hope for considering the circumstances. If he leaves now what calibre of manager would honesty take the role when the owner wants out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Guys losing Lambert now would be a disaster in my opinion. He is not the most inspiring of managers but he is the best we can hope for considering the circumstances. If he leaves now what calibre of manager would honesty take the role when the owner wants out? Malky Mackay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amo69 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Guys losing Lambert now would be a disaster in my opinion. He is not the most inspiring of managers but he is the best we can hope for considering the circumstances. If he leaves now what calibre of manager would honesty take the role when the owner wants out? Malky Mackay. I think even he would choose Norwich over us. Get them promoted and be a hero or try and save us from relegation and still be hated he many if succeed. I know which option I would take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Guys losing Lambert now would be a disaster in my opinion. He is not the most inspiring of managers but he is the best we can hope for considering the circumstances. If he leaves now what calibre of manager would honesty take the role when the owner wants out? Malky Mackay. So replace Lambert with a guy who could very well be another Lambert? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amo69 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Guys losing Lambert now would be a disaster in my opinion. He is not the most inspiring of managers but he is the best we can hope for considering the circumstances. If he leaves now what calibre of manager would honesty take the role when the owner wants out? Malky Mackay. So replace Lambert with a guy who could very well be another Lambert? I think he was answering the question about the calibre of manager we can expect if Lambert left us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbie09 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 (edited) Guys losing Lambert now would be a disaster in my opinion. He is not the most inspiring of managers but he is the best we can hope for considering the circumstances. If he leaves now what calibre of manager would honesty take the role when the owner wants out? Malky Mackay. I think even he would choose Norwich over us. Get them promoted and be a hero or try and save us from relegation and still be hated he many if succeed. I know which option I would take. Norwich have already appointed Adams so Mackay isn't going there just yet Edited May 25, 2014 by Robbie09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Guys losing Lambert now would be a disaster in my opinion. He is not the most inspiring of managers but he is the best we can hope for considering the circumstances. If he leaves now what calibre of manager would honesty take the role when the owner wants out? Malky Mackay. So replace Lambert with a guy who could very well be another Lambert? I think he was answering the question about the calibre of manager we can expect if Lambert left us. Oh, I thought he meant that would be his choice from the available managers should Lambert go. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers13 Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 Guys losing Lambert now would be a disaster in my opinion. He is not the most inspiring of managers but he is the best we can hope for considering the circumstances. If he leaves now what calibre of manager would honesty take the role when the owner wants out? Malky Mackay. So replace Lambert with a guy who could very well be another Lambert? That's an optimistic view of mackays level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaggy Posted May 25, 2014 Share Posted May 25, 2014 I didn't buy into the Lambert hype when he arrived but at the same time I haven't jumped in with the crowd asking him to leave. My opinion is still the same, he is a decent young manager and is much of a muchness with any other manager we'd be looking at attracting. We are not going to sack him and find the next Simione so I'm in favour of keeping him on as he knows the squad and provides continuity. ....continuity of what exactly? This is the crux of the argument for or against keeping him on now for me. People state given the predicament the club finds itself in in terms of being up for sale that it is now best to keep Lambert on for the sake of continuity - he knows the players etc, etc. However when you look at what it is we would be continuing with it is frightening. We secured one win from our last 9 games, taking just 4 points from 27, go back a little further and look at the last 15 games we took just 11 points from 45 and go back even further and from our last 24 games we took just 19 points from a possible 72. I cannot think of one reason to give me hope Lambert can turn that around. We had a decent end to the 12/13 season, Lambert spent around 15-20 mill last summer, signed half a dozen players and we went backwards and had our worst season since we were relegated in 1987. I fear if we go with the policy of continuity it will result in a continuation of our dire from and ultimately lead to relegation. To at least give ourselves a chance we need a change of manager regardless of who the owner is. Right on the money and unchallenged which says a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts