Mantis Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 We have never been a good possession side for a long time Pretty much. Results must take precedent for now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I think Olearys first season was the last time we played any decent stuff...before then your talking early Brian Little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted January 2, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted January 2, 2014 Yes, our average possession this season (42.3%) is only a drop of a few percent on last season's average (45.6%) which only serves to prove that we have never been a particularly good team in possession since Lambert has arrived other then the odd game here and there. I'm not overly concerned about possession stats - they don't show the full picture. (Not picking on your post - just used it as an example) We could spend the majority of the game passing the ball around the back 4 and keeper. That would definitely make our possession stat higher - but so what? We would have created nothing with that extra possession. What matters is effective possession. That is, possession compared to the number of chances/shots. That, imo, is a better indicator of a teams performance in any given game. By all accounts we could have had more goals against Sunderland, so our effective possession was good - especially compared to recent home performances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) We have never been a good possession side for a long time We were starting to become one under Houllier. Sadly we hired the complete antithesis of him as his successor that meant his noble efforts in trying to change our playing philosophy went to waste. I'm not overly concerned about possession stats - they don't show the full picture. (Not picking on your post - just used it as an example) We could spend the majority of the game passing the ball around the back 4 and keeper. That would definitely make our possession stat higher - but so what? We would have created nothing with that extra possession. What matters is effective possession. That is, possession compared to the number of chances/shots. That, imo, is a better indicator of a teams performance in any given game. By all accounts we could have had more goals against Sunderland, so our effective possession was good - especially compared to recent home performances. I think that is a fair point to an extent. Obviously the recent low possession stats have been highlighted over this season mainly because of how we have been set-up and playing in most of the games. Today, especially the second-half, was much better because we actually looked a threat whenever we got the ball and created much more than our opponents. However it hasn't been like this for most of the season where we have struggled to string a couple of passes together, which has often resulted in us camped deep in our own half for most of the game and desperately hanging-on. Our inability to retain possession in such games has an impact both defensively and offensively. On the one hand, we haven't had enough of the ball to mount many attacks and on the other we have surrendered too much possession to our opponents allowing them to have free-reign to barrage us for long spells. The basic principle is that possession is a form of defence as the opposition cannot score when they do not have the ball. Nobody is asking for us to become a replica of Swansea but we shouldn't be down amongst the worst in the league in terms of possession and pass-accuracy. We shouldn't be hoofing the ball every five minutes which just automatically invites pressure. We also should be able to manage 5/6 passes in a row without panic immediately setting in. Improvement in these basic aspects is vital in the long-term if we ever wish to be a competitive and entertaining team. Edited January 2, 2014 by Isa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted January 2, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted January 2, 2014 The basic principle is that possession is a form of defence as the opposition cannot score when they do not have the ball. Nobody is asking for us to become a replica of Swansea but we shouldn't be down amongst the worst in the league in terms of possession and pass-accuracy. We shouldn't be hoofing the ball every five minutes which just automatically invites pressure. We also should be able to manage 5/6 passes in a row without panic immediately setting in. Improvement in these basic aspects is vital in the long-term if we ever wish to be a competitive and entertaining team. Thoroughly agree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivevilla Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 The basic principle is that possession is a form of defence as the opposition cannot score when they do not have the ball. Nobody is asking for us to become a replica of Swansea but we shouldn't be down amongst the worst in the league in terms of possession and pass-accuracy. We shouldn't be hoofing the ball every five minutes which just automatically invites pressure. We also should be able to manage 5/6 passes in a row without panic immediately setting in. Improvement in these basic aspects is vital in the long-term if we ever wish to be a competitive and entertaining team. Thoroughly agree. Seconded, this is important. Even if possession in general isn't necessarily critical, it is important that we have the ability to keep possession at key times ie, end of games or to kill momentum. Right now we still seem incapable of doing this, although there was a nice spell at the end of today's game. Used correctly, possession allows you to control tempo and dictate to the opponent. This cane be used not just to up the tempo and pressure the opponent, but also to slow the tempo at key spots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSV Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 i wanted him out.. but as its now January and hes not going. I am happy for him to stay and i hope he will be backed this transfer window to rectify his mistakes (not buying a proper DM or attacking midfielder and wasting the money on Kozak. Also relying on kids was never going to work. We may as well wait till Summer and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) Any successful business succeeds on results VillaCas. 11 wins in 48, one relegation battle and Lambert looks likely to repeat that feat when the next five games are over. You argument would only stand if Lambert hadn't spent 40 plus million and made our squad worse. £40m worth of £10k players in and £80m worth of £50k players out would not normally indicate that you should be getting substantially stronger The point i'm clearly making with the aforementioned players is that not all of our players are earning 5k-15k which you keep using as an excuse for Lambert's poor performance. Those players are first team regulars and are earning much more than 5k-15k. You remember your argument wages v performance. Doesn't really stack up does it. Yes it really does - McL's first XI must have been on three times what Lamberts first XI is on - you would expect McL misfits to do better but incredibly Lambert's team performed better - a higher finish and more points I have never said that I support Steve Bruce taking over from Lambert and you would be more respected on here if you'd stop making things up to suit your debate. You 'liked' the suggestion, so from that I took it that you liked the suggestion - don't worry though Hull lost so Steve Bruce won't be the chosen one today, probably Mullenstein as Fulham won To answer your last point no-one on site is suffering from over-expectation but you are living in denial concerning Lambert. Equal on points for 10th place - where exactly do you think we should be?????????? I predicted 24 points for the end of Jan and we are on 23 so well on track in my opinion The difference being in your own opinion those players out were poor no matter what they cost. No idea what this means Your wages v performance debate doesn't stack up because even with more than half our first team on higher wages we still are struggling. I find it amazing that you struggle to understand this concept - McLs First XI £30m a year and Lambert's First XI £14m a year......If you were buying a new car and one cost £30k and one cost £14k, which one would you think should be the better performing car? FFS!!!!!! Liking someone's post doesn't always mean you are in agreement with it. You can just like the method of retort which has nothing to do with the content. Sure We're eleventh after beating the bottom placed club. It's no surprise at all to me that your debate has fluctuated back again to placement. It was just as premature the first time and will equally have no bearing until the end of the season. You think we should be much higher up the table do you??? I predicted 24 points by the end of Jan months ago and we're on 23 points so no change in my position. I also predicted 10th-12th finish right at the start of the season and again we are on track for that - in truth we've got no right to expect a 10th place finish based on being the 16th or 17th the wage bill rankings but I think Lambert will get us there Edited January 2, 2014 by VillaCas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) I think everyone would be behind the idea of giving a manager time. But risso is right, just giving someone time does not guarantee success. If you gave the wrong person time it could in fact really damage the club. I agree that time does not equal success but I disagree with risso that last season was "an absolute disaster".........some peoples expectation is stuck in the MON era, given the budget employed it would be crazy to expect anything other than a struggle for a couple of seasons - even then our ability to get back in the upper reaches of the league will ulrimately be determined by finances That is some post VillaCas. Thanks I remember there were those on site who absolutely ridiculed anyone suggesting that we would struggle with Lambert at the helm. We would struggle for a couple of seasons no matter who is at the helm - you don't rebuild a squad on peanuts and expect it to be a stroll in the park. As you will remember I wanted OGS or Poyet to replace McL but I predict that the decision to appoint Lambert will prove that I was mistaken.......Stability and expectations - two words to keep in mind during 2014 morf I seem to remember you saying that we wouldn't struggle last season VillaCas. I also seem to remember you pulling out charts trying to prove we weren't struggling by selecting just one part of the season when ultimately we only secured our Premiership status with one game to go. You remember wrong. The chart that you are talking about showed the last six months of McL's season and the first six months of Lamberts - it clearly showed that McL was getting worse and worse with the club at an absolute low when Lambert took over and then a slow and steady recovery. There was a terrible period of form over christmas 2012 and then another period of decent form to finsh higher and on more points than McL whilst utilising less than half the resources.......so no not an obscure chart at all. Now trying to predict with hindsight isn't going to wash with anyone on here VillaCas LOL - I predicted 10th to 12th at the start of the season, currently we're equal on points for 10th so hardly hindsight.......let me ask you though Morf...what position exactly DO YOU think would be appropriate? 8th? 5th? 4th? Please enlighten us I'm not posting on this thread anymore as I feel the Lambert Out posse has been silenced for now ....I'll look out for your further insights at the Lambert...the plan...the future. Don't forget your watchwords for 2014 Morf - "Appropriate Expectation" and "Stability" Edited January 2, 2014 by VillaCas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstonMartin82 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Yes, our average possession this season (42.3%) is only a drop of a few percent on last season's average (45.6%) which only serves to prove that we have never been a particularly good team in possession since Lambert has arrived other then the odd game here and there. I'm not overly concerned about possession stats - they don't show the full picture. (Not picking on your post - just used it as an example) We could spend the majority of the game passing the ball around the back 4 and keeper. That would definitely make our possession stat higher - but so what? We would have created nothing with that extra possession. What matters is effective possession. That is, possession compared to the number of chances/shots. That, imo, is a better indicator of a teams performance in any given game. By all accounts we could have had more goals against Sunderland, so our effective possession was good - especially compared to recent home performances. Not sure I fully agree. Although possession is not directly related to results it is directly related to player fitness. The more you have the ball the more your players can rest. The less the opposite. The possession stat will possibly have an impact over the course of a season as players should be fresher - a small impact maybe but margins are fine at the highest level and I for one would feel more comfortable if we held possession a lot better. If anyone has the time, or the stats readily available, perhaps they could post last seasons league table with an average possession column? Might go a little way to see if there is a concept behind my argument or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENTLEMAN Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Most teams won't gift us a goal We said that after the Stoke game too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raver50032 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 It shouldn't be forgotten that pretty much every other team has had a poor run of form and the odd shocking loss, it's been that kind of season and why we are still 11th. I can't honestly believe this thread is nearly 80 pages long. It'll deserve a place in Internet history before too long it's that daft. Well not really that unbelievable. It shouldn't be forgotten that up until yesterday, we had been playing pretty dour, rubbish football (and from all of what I have read of yesterday's game, it sounds like it wasn't actually that much better after all? Great result not withstanding). Up until yesterday, we had not won in six games (most winnable) and had suffered within that run, 4 straight defeats (one debatable dead rubber). That is reality. It shouldn't be forgotten either, that 'pretty much every other team' that has suffered such a poor run of form has actually then changed their manager? Now, I am on the fence with Paul right now. Kind of like wanting to believe in life after death (Hell please, with all the other horrible sinners), I really want to believe that Paul is the one to restore parity to my club. Fluffing the winnable fixtures (largely) with such rubbish football and that undoubted run of defeats just has me wringing my hands with uncertain angst. I can't help it. Some (and I say 'some') elements of what we have experienced of late remind me of last season and had me questioning the progress we should be or are making. Boxing Day was our fourth straight defeat... hopeless, uncommitted football... Howls of discontent from the Holte and the North... Rightly so... So, for me, it's not all that unbelievable that we have a thread of this nature. I really hope he pulls it round. I really do. I think after Boxing Day, his honeymoon is well and truly over - the fans have been uber patient with him and supportive of the team up to that point. It's going to take a fair bit of effort to win back the Holte - we'll see if he has the nous for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENTLEMAN Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 So, for me, it's not all that unbelievable that we have a thread of this nature. I really hope he pulls it round. I really do. I think after Boxing Day, his honeymoon is well and truly over - the fans have been uber patient with him and supportive of the team up to that point. It's going to take a fair bit of effort to win back the Holte - we'll see if he has the nous for that. He will win them back. In Lambert's own words we are a million miles away from where the club should be. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isa Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 So, for me, it's not all that unbelievable that we have a thread of this nature. I really hope he pulls it round. I really do. I think after Boxing Day, his honeymoon is well and truly over - the fans have been uber patient with him and supportive of the team up to that point. It's going to take a fair bit of effort to win back the Holte - we'll see if he has the nous for that. He will win them back. In Lambert's own words we are a million miles away from where the club should be. That doesn't mean Lambert is therefore capable of advancing us by a 'million miles' though. I could intend to become a billionaire in five years time and admit I am currently a billion miles (excuse the poor attempt at a pun) from acheiving that. Words like that mean very little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarpie Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 There's a good reason why we've been shit when we've had lot more possession... we don't have creativity to unlock the opposition defense but when we have lower possession we play counter attacking. Don't think our players are as shit as some claim, none of them just can't marshall other players and make them to take responsibility. Only exception is Vlaar, our defense played lot better again as he was back, Baker and Lowton looked much better playing alongside of him. If Lambert can get experienced midfielder and attacking mid in january, I think our other players will probably up their game too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GENTLEMAN Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 That doesn't mean Lambert is therefore capable of advancing us by a 'million miles' though. I could intend to become a billionaire in five years time and admit I am currently a billion miles (excuse the poor attempt at a pun) from acheiving that. Words like that mean very little. I was just demonstrating Lambert is actively looking to improve the team/club. I know for a fact Lambert is not content with where we are currently and wants more as time goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Any successful business succeeds on results VillaCas. 11 wins in 48, one relegation battle and Lambert looks likely to repeat that feat when the next five games are over. You argument would only stand if Lambert hadn't spent 40 plus million and made our squad worse. £40m worth of £10k players in and £80m worth of £50k players out would not normally indicate that you should be getting substantially stronger The point i'm clearly making with the aforementioned players is that not all of our players are earning 5k-15k which you keep using as an excuse for Lambert's poor performance. Those players are first team regulars and are earning much more than 5k-15k. You remember your argument wages v performance. Doesn't really stack up does it. Yes it really does - McL's first XI must have been on three times what Lamberts first XI is on - you would expect McL misfits to do better but incredibly Lambert's team performed better - a higher finish and more points I have never said that I support Steve Bruce taking over from Lambert and you would be more respected on here if you'd stop making things up to suit your debate. You 'liked' the suggestion, so from that I took it that you liked the suggestion - don't worry though Hull lost so Steve Bruce won't be the chosen one today, probably Mullenstein as Fulham won To answer your last point no-one on site is suffering from over-expectation but you are living in denial concerning Lambert. Equal on points for 10th place - where exactly do you think we should be?????????? I predicted 24 points for the end of Jan and we are on 23 so well on track in my opinion The difference being in your own opinion those players out were poor no matter what they cost. No idea what this means Your wages v performance debate doesn't stack up because even with more than half our first team on higher wages we still are struggling. I find it amazing that you struggle to understand this concept - McLs First XI £30m a year and Lambert's First XI £14m a year......If you were buying a new car and one cost £30k and one cost £14k, which one would you think should be the better performing car? FFS!!!!!! Liking someone's post doesn't always mean you are in agreement with it. You can just like the method of retort which has nothing to do with the content. Sure We're eleventh after beating the bottom placed club. It's no surprise at all to me that your debate has fluctuated back again to placement. It was just as premature the first time and will equally have no bearing until the end of the season. You think we should be much higher up the table do you??? I predicted 24 points by the end of Jan months ago and we're on 23 points so no change in my position. I also predicted 10th-12th finish right at the start of the season and again we are on track for that - in truth we've got no right to expect a 10th place finish based on being the 16th or 17th the wage bill rankings but I think Lambert will get us there Concerning my first point you know exactly what it means. Your car analogy doesn't stack up either because if an owner has a under-performing car for nineteen months chances are the car would be changed after spending a decent amount of money to fix it. Lastly I was commenting on your flip flap debate. Previously you used our away record and league placement to defend Lambert with completely ignoring our abysmal home record and performances. When that was tarnished you then used the wages v performance debate and have now switched back to placement when we've managed to beat the bottom place team and moved upwards in the league. I like to call it Snakes and Ladders debate for obvious reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I think everyone would be behind the idea of giving a manager time. But risso is right, just giving someone time does not guarantee success. If you gave the wrong person time it could in fact really damage the club. I agree that time does not equal success but I disagree with risso that last season was "an absolute disaster".........some peoples expectation is stuck in the MON era, given the budget employed it would be crazy to expect anything other than a struggle for a couple of seasons - even then our ability to get back in the upper reaches of the league will ulrimately be determined by finances That is some post VillaCas. Thanks I remember there were those on site who absolutely ridiculed anyone suggesting that we would struggle with Lambert at the helm. We would struggle for a couple of seasons no matter who is at the helm - you don't rebuild a squad on peanuts and expect it to be a stroll in the park. As you will remember I wanted OGS or Poyet to replace McL but I predict that the decision to appoint Lambert will prove that I was mistaken.......Stability and expectations - two words to keep in mind during 2014 morf I seem to remember you saying that we wouldn't struggle last season VillaCas. I also seem to remember you pulling out charts trying to prove we weren't struggling by selecting just one part of the season when ultimately we only secured our Premiership status with one game to go. You remember wrong. The chart that you are talking about showed the last six months of McL's season and the first six months of Lamberts - it clearly showed that McL was getting worse and worse with the club at an absolute low when Lambert took over and then a slow and steady recovery. There was a terrible period of form over christmas 2012 and then another period of decent form to finsh higher and on more points than McL whilst utilising less than half the resources.......so no not an obscure chart at all. Now trying to predict with hindsight isn't going to wash with anyone on here VillaCas LOL - I predicted 10th to 12th at the start of the season, currently we're equal on points for 10th so hardly hindsight.......let me ask you though Morf...what position exactly DO YOU think would be appropriate? 8th? 5th? 4th? Please enlighten us I'm not posting on this thread anymore as I feel the Lambert Out posse has been silenced for now ....I'll look out for your further insights at the Lambert...the plan...the future. Don't forget your watchwords for 2014 Morf - "Appropriate Expectation" and "Stability" So as I have stated you selected one part of a season to suit your debate and I see you've made no further comment on your predictions last season. I don't think anyone been silenced VillaCas and certainly not in the way you are implying. After HH revelations on Lambert looking to sign more experienced players in the January window and then Lambert confirming that, posters who haven't been pro-Lambert are now waiting to see who we sign before commenting further which is a sensible position to take. You will note that from day one in our debates I have advocated a balance between experience and youth and cited Lambert's youth, lack of Premiership experience transfer policy as the major contributor to our poor form during Lambert's tenure. Maybe the penny has finally dropped for both you and Lambert and it's not before time. With that in mind you should look up the meaning of self-deception, read it and then send a copy to Lambert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted January 2, 2014 VT Supporter Share Posted January 2, 2014 So, for me, it's not all that unbelievable that we have a thread of this nature. I really hope he pulls it round. I really do. I think after Boxing Day, his honeymoon is well and truly over - the fans have been uber patient with him and supportive of the team up to that point. It's going to take a fair bit of effort to win back the Holte - we'll see if he has the nous for that. He will win them back. In Lambert's own words we are a million miles away from where the club should be. That doesn't mean Lambert is therefore capable of advancing us by a 'million miles' though. I could intend to become a billionaire in five years time and admit I am currently a billion miles (excuse the poor attempt at a pun) from acheiving that. Words like that mean very little. I wouldn't say it means very little, in terms of him actually acheiving it you are right, so far it's just words and by his own admission we're only 18 months in to a much longer term project. However, the fact that he acknowledges that right now what he wants for the club and the current level are a million miles apart is very positive and shows he's looking a lot further down the road. I'd much rather have that kind of long term thinking than someone who sees our level as mid table and whines about it and wants backing with millions to change it. Lambert has completely turned over the playing staff in a short space of time. I think the counter attacking, direct football we are seeing in contrast to how we played at the back end of last year is deliberate, I think he wants to make sure we aren't getting battered 8-0 again and sitting in the bottom 3. So far it's borne some fruit. It's not what anyone would like to see in an ideal world but the facts of the matter are that this season was all about letting the team mature some more without having to be fighting for it's life in the bottom 3. So far so good on that score. Last we improved dramatically after looking doomed, if we do the same this year we'll be doing it from 11th in the table rather than down the bottom. The players bought for next to nothing who play a part in us (hopefully) finishing mid table will add a lot to their value, the value of the squad and as such when it's time to build on this foundation we will be doing it from a position of strength. Selling assets which make us money to reinvest, not desperately trying to get rid of ageing players whose value has plummeted sitting on huge wages offering us nothing. Patience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyAnty Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Yes, our average possession this season (42.3%) is only a drop of a few percent on last season's average (45.6%) which only serves to prove that we have never been a particularly good team in possession since Lambert has arrived other then the odd game here and there. Thanks, I stand corrected. All I seemed to see this season was possession around 30-35% with the odd exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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