TRO Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I still say our performance in the transfer market has got us in the situation we are in today. you can blame who you like for it. Managers with no Nous Coaches with no ability to get the best out of the players, once bought. Owner/CEO for inadequate funding i.e wage ceilings Lack of investment in the scouting network Scouts with no Nous Definitely, the money we wrote off on shit signings especially from the first 3 years is by far the biggest factor in where we are now. We have to pay for our mistakes whereas the likes of City and Chelsea can make hugely expensive cock-ups with impunity. Sharky, I have seen it with plenty of clubs, sunderland in point , wolves went through a terrible time after the Steve Daley era and have never really recovered....Man City went through it Just after the Francis Lee/Dennis Tueart era.....trying to think of their chairman at the time, it will come to me. Poor signings ....kill ya thats why a strategic approach to it, with a clear and concise mandate applied is crucial and it is paramount that staff with Nous are appointed not nepotism to deliver. oh it would be lovely to receive a " get out of jail" card......Carlos slim where are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I still say our performance in the transfer market has got us in the situation we are in today. you can blame who you like for it. Managers with no Nous Coaches with no ability to get the best out of the players, once bought. Owner/CEO for inadequate funding i.e wage ceilings Lack of investment in the scouting network Scouts with no Nous Definitely, the money we wrote off on shit signings especially from the first 3 years is by far the biggest factor in where we are now. We have to pay for our mistakes whereas the likes of City and Chelsea can make hugely expensive cock-ups with impunity. Sharky, I have seen it with plenty of clubs, sunderland in point , wolves went through a terrible time after the Steve Daley era and have never really recovered....Man City went through it Just after the Francis Lee/Dennis Tueart era.....trying to think of their chairman at the time, it will come to me. Poor signings ....kill ya thats why a strategic approach to it, with a clear and concise mandate applied is crucial and it is paramount that staff with Nous are appointed not nepotism to deliver. oh it would be lovely to receive a " get out of jail" card......Carlos slim where are you? Like what has been mentioed before, my total belief is If we never employed "that manager" we woulld never be in this position! As for Carlos Slim. He could buy us and spend 200 million for a little tax relief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skarroki Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 In my opinion, I am fully behind Lerner in a "better the devil you know" mindset. New owners could be so hit and miss, can promise so much and not deliver or just not be suitable or understand our club. I believe Lerner genuinely understands the history of our club and it's pedigree, but we're not in the early 80's anymore We could have gone for broke, kept Milner, O'Neill and invested heavily, but if we had got no European football, or another top 6 finish, where would it have put us now? I think the appointments haven't been the best managerially, but to keep managers for the season before sacking has kept us up on more than one occasion. Sacking mcleish before the end of the season could have backfired and sacking lambert during our bad patch last year would have almost certainly landed us in a complete mesS I believe. Buying bent saved us one season in the same way keeping faith with the squad saved us last season. If we can bring someone in who can be proven squeaky clean then I'll be happy. But I don't want a Red Bull, Tan or Venkys situation here and as it stands we're guaranteed not to have that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I still say our performance in the transfer market has got us in the situation we are in today. you can blame who you like for it. Managers with no Nous Coaches with no ability to get the best out of the players, once bought. Owner/CEO for inadequate funding i.e wage ceilings Lack of investment in the scouting network Scouts with no Nous Definitely, the money we wrote off on shit signings especially from the first 3 years is by far the biggest factor in where we are now. We have to pay for our mistakes whereas the likes of City and Chelsea can make hugely expensive cock-ups with impunity. Sharky, I have seen it with plenty of clubs, sunderland in point , wolves went through a terrible time after the Steve Daley era and have never really recovered....Man City went through it Just after the Francis Lee/Dennis Tueart era.....trying to think of their chairman at the time, it will come to me. Poor signings ....kill ya thats why a strategic approach to it, with a clear and concise mandate applied is crucial and it is paramount that staff with Nous are appointed not nepotism to deliver. oh it would be lovely to receive a " get out of jail" card......Carlos slim where are you? Lordy be you have reminded me- Peter Swales ! What a first class EEjit he was - didn't he fall out with Ron Saunders ? Was a self publicising fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I still say our performance in the transfer market has got us in the situation we are in today. you can blame who you like for it. Managers with no Nous Coaches with no ability to get the best out of the players, once bought. Owner/CEO for inadequate funding i.e wage ceilings Lack of investment in the scouting network Scouts with no Nous Definitely, the money we wrote off on shit signings especially from the first 3 years is by far the biggest factor in where we are now. We have to pay for our mistakes whereas the likes of City and Chelsea can make hugely expensive cock-ups with impunity. Sharky, I have seen it with plenty of clubs, sunderland in point , wolves went through a terrible time after the Steve Daley era and have never really recovered....Man City went through it Just after the Francis Lee/Dennis Tueart era.....trying to think of their chairman at the time, it will come to me. Poor signings ....kill ya thats why a strategic approach to it, with a clear and concise mandate applied is crucial and it is paramount that staff with Nous are appointed not nepotism to deliver. oh it would be lovely to receive a " get out of jail" card......Carlos slim where are you? Lordy be you have reminded me- Peter Swales ! What a first class EEjit he was - didn't he fall out with Ron Saunders ? Was a self publicising fool. thanks Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 In my opinion, I am fully behind Lerner in a "better the devil you know" mindset. New owners could be so hit and miss, can promise so much and not deliver or just not be suitable or understand our club. I believe Lerner genuinely understands the history of our club and it's pedigree, but we're not in the early 80's anymore We could have gone for broke, kept Milner, O'Neill and invested heavily, but if we had got no European football, or another top 6 finish, where would it have put us now? I think the appointments haven't been the best managerially, but to keep managers for the season before sacking has kept us up on more than one occasion. Sacking mcleish before the end of the season could have backfired and sacking lambert during our bad patch last year would have almost certainly landed us in a complete mesS I believe. Buying bent saved us one season in the same way keeping faith with the squad saved us last season. If we can bring someone in who can be proven squeaky clean then I'll be happy. But I don't want a Red Bull, Tan or Venkys situation here and as it stands we're guaranteed not to have that Bent did save us......but that is my very point Fire fighting once again, when are we going to be on the front foot after years of being on the back foot. in the short term a signing that delivered results from a desperate position, but now it was another case of " firework" money. we have no long term strategy. that long term strategy one day becomes your short term strategy with structure and balance. when will we stop the rot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) we are talking about signing new players..... just plucked 2 out of the air that we cocked up on in terms of value....There's plenty more Bent 18million Reo coker -8.5 million No residual value to date.....£26.5 million pounds, what could we do with that? Vincent company - 6 million Chicorito- 6 million The lunatics have definately had their day at B6 Edited January 16, 2014 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 And yet United spent £7m on Bebe and Soldado was £25m(?) for Tottenham earlier this season. We've made some bad, expensive buys...but if even Alex Ferguson buys his fair share of duds, picking out individual examples doesn't really inform the discussion much. There'll always be a bigger turkey somewhere else, just like there'll always be a team who got a better bargain somewhere else in the league too. That's football in general, not Aston Villa specifically. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG_Villa_Fan Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 And yet United spent £7m on Bebe and Soldado was £25m(?) for Tottenham earlier this season. We've made some bad, expensive buys...but if even Alex Ferguson buys his fair share of duds, picking out individual examples doesn't really inform the discussion much. There'll always be a bigger turkey somewhere else, just like there'll always be a team who got a better bargain somewhere else in the league too. That's football in general, not Aston Villa specifically. You could add King Kenny's 50 mil cock-up with Downing and Carroll, but reality is that some clubs and some managers can afford to do it. That is, the clubs have a financial plan that they follow and even if they misjudge some of the singings and wages, they could still take it on the chin and continue following their plan. With Villa, it apparently was impossible - they either didn't have a plan at all, or it wasn't a good one, as it forced them to sway massively from one end to the other long after MON was gone and they supposedly had learnt. They hadn't. Problem is, there is nothing to suggest that they currently have a good plan. Yes, they're cutting the wage bill and not spending too much on players, but is it because there is a good financial plan for the club to improve on and off the field in the future? I'm not so sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Downing and Carroll basically leveled out the ridiculous Torres fee, though. Spurs signings arguably covered by the Bale signing (and Levy having an infamously tight wage control over the club). These clubs both have more commercial streams than Villa as well - especially Liverpool. Chelsea/Man City/Man Utd can make poor signing after poor signing and simply gloss over it by pumping more money into another signing. There's just no recompense for their mistakes. Didn't work out? We'll throw another £30m at the problem! It's not reality - not at all. The Matic signing underpins this. "Sold" for £5m - bought back for £21m. Money isn't an issue. We simply can't operate on this footing, and neither can most clubs in the league. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Well, yeah, this is the problem - Lerner doesn't have so much money that he can spend endlessly on players without caring. It'd be nice if he did, but it seems a bit unfair to criticise him for not having it. It's also remarkable how quickly the worm turns. Up until this season Tottenham were allegedly the super-savvy investors, but this time they've spent a lot of money and it's not delivered much. There's obviously a degree of skill involved in signing players, but a large amount of blind luck too. I actually think that applies to management in general, which is why I'm less keen to see Lambert sacked than many here - I'm sure his luck will change for the better soon. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 In my opinion, I am fully behind Lerner in a "better the devil you know" mindset. New owners could be so hit and miss, can promise so much and not deliver or just not be suitable or understand our club. I believe Lerner genuinely understands the history of our club and it's pedigree, but we're not in the early 80's anymore We could have gone for broke, kept Milner, O'Neill and invested heavily, but if we had got no European football, or another top 6 finish, where would it have put us now? I think the appointments haven't been the best managerially, but to keep managers for the season before sacking has kept us up on more than one occasion. Sacking mcleish before the end of the season could have backfired and sacking lambert during our bad patch last year would have almost certainly landed us in a complete mesS I believe. Buying bent saved us one season in the same way keeping faith with the squad saved us last season. If we can bring someone in who can be proven squeaky clean then I'll be happy. But I don't want a Red Bull, Tan or Venkys situation here and as it stands we're guaranteed not to have that Bent did save us......but that is my very point Fire fighting once again, when are we going to be on the front foot after years of being on the back foot. in the short term a signing that delivered results from a desperate position, but now it was another case of " firework" money. we have no long term strategy. that long term strategy one day becomes your short term strategy with structure and balance. when will we stop the rot. I don't see this TRO - whether it is working particularly well at present isn't everything we are doing now just such a strategy (it would help if the owner said so)...., passionate Manager with flexible tactics, buy young and hungry (yes, I know......), play exciting dynamic football, a pressing game if you will, excite the fans, build the fan base, reward the good perfromers with better contracts, sell on as appropriate ? Now, I am more than aware that some of these things will have provoked hysterical laughter in some quarters, but I do recognise them as a discernible plan, even if, as a PL fan, I find it hard to spot the tangible evidence at times !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 And I must admit at the time I and a few others thought Reo Coker might turn out to be our Mortimer figure - wasn't he also England Under 21 Captain or something, yes it was a bit over the odds but the whole world knew Randy had money. £5m would have been ok ? Although I take your point in general terms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 And yet United spent £7m on Bebe and Soldado was £25m(?) for Tottenham earlier this season. We've made some bad, expensive buys...but if even Alex Ferguson buys his fair share of duds, picking out individual examples doesn't really inform the discussion much. There'll always be a bigger turkey somewhere else, just like there'll always be a team who got a better bargain somewhere else in the league too. That's football in general, not Aston Villa specifically. so, who else has bought has many as us....I did say in my post and there is plenty more, just to save me typing the obvious and boring you to death. Alex ( the perfect default) Ferguson has bought some duds djemba, dejemba is another , but he has bought more good than bad.... we have bought more bad than good IMO....He has been able camouflage the bad ones, by negating them with so many good ones and keep up his standards. I do understand your point that picking a couple out proves no point, but you know who they all are.....I think some of us are in denial with it all. ask yourself this question, How many clubs the size of Aston Villa are stuck in austerity programmes and then you will appreciate the magnitude of our bad buys in terms of numbers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I can't believe how long it is taking this thread to skip over the 600 pages. Where is BJ10 when you need him ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyshaw Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 The problem is when we spend big the player has to be a success, when if you compare to the likes Man City and Man Uniteds of this world they can flop. All managers will get it wrong at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I can't believe how long it is taking this thread to skip over the 600 pages. Where is BJ10 when you need him ? Don't you worry. I'll add 10 pages myself Feb 1st. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 (edited) In my opinion, I am fully behind Lerner in a "better the devil you know" mindset. New owners could be so hit and miss, can promise so much and not deliver or just not be suitable or understand our club. I believe Lerner genuinely understands the history of our club and it's pedigree, but we're not in the early 80's anymore We could have gone for broke, kept Milner, O'Neill and invested heavily, but if we had got no European football, or another top 6 finish, where would it have put us now? I think the appointments haven't been the best managerially, but to keep managers for the season before sacking has kept us up on more than one occasion. Sacking mcleish before the end of the season could have backfired and sacking lambert during our bad patch last year would have almost certainly landed us in a complete mesS I believe. Buying bent saved us one season in the same way keeping faith with the squad saved us last season. If we can bring someone in who can be proven squeaky clean then I'll be happy. But I don't want a Red Bull, Tan or Venkys situation here and as it stands we're guaranteed not to have that Bent did save us......but that is my very point Fire fighting once again, when are we going to be on the front foot after years of being on the back foot. in the short term a signing that delivered results from a desperate position, but now it was another case of " firework" money. we have no long term strategy. that long term strategy one day becomes your short term strategy with structure and balance. when will we stop the rot. I don't see this TRO - whether it is working particularly well at present isn't everything we are doing now just such a strategy (it would help if the owner said so)...., passionate Manager with flexible tactics, buy young and hungry (yes, I know......), play exciting dynamic football, a pressing game if you will, excite the fans, build the fan base, reward the good perfromers with better contracts, sell on as appropriate ? Now, I am more than aware that some of these things will have provoked hysterical laughter in some quarters, but I do recognise them as a discernible plan, even if, as a PL fan, I find it hard to spot the tangible evidence at times !!! If something is " not working particularly well" is that not a euphemism for " not working"...sorry if I'm being semantic, not meaning to be. I think Darren Bent was a perfect example of what i was trying to say, it wasn't an investment it was a "patch" and a very expensive one too, despite the hole he dug us out of......short term fix, long term problem. Its like shoving the dirt underneath the mat....somebody, sometime, somehow has to deal with it, that dirt don't just go away. Look, I'm not trying create a witch hunt.....and despite my obvious frustration at not getting this team building going to my satisfaction anyway, I still have a longing for PL to succeed. I really and honestly want him to make it. It may well be, that I am one of them that just doesn't understand how big this repair job is. I still think that it could be that they PL, PF & RL have not made a good enough attempt for us to understand Edited January 17, 2014 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Well, yeah, this is the problem - Lerner doesn't have so much money that he can spend endlessly on players without caring. It'd be nice if he did, but it seems a bit unfair to criticise him for not having it. It's also remarkable how quickly the worm turns. Up until this season Tottenham were allegedly the super-savvy investors, but this time they've spent a lot of money and it's not delivered much. There's obviously a degree of skill involved in signing players, but a large amount of blind luck too. I actually think that applies to management in general, which is why I'm less keen to see Lambert sacked than many here - I'm sure his luck will change for the better soon. thats a fair shout....and yes the Tottenham model is an example of money not necessarily working to its full capacity in isolation of other factors. ....I'll bet the Man City & Chelsea fans use that to promote good purchasing decisions as the main ingredient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I can't believe how long it is taking this thread to skip over the 600 pages. Where is BJ10 when you need him ? Don't you worry. I'll add 10 pages myself Feb 1st. There isn't anymore to write on Randy Lerner...just joking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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